Breaking Down Barriers: Body Confidence & Inclusivity in the Salon Industry
Body confidence and inclusion are more than just buzzwords in the salon industry; they are essential elements that shape the experiences of everyone involved, from clients to professionals. In this episode, I sit down with Amy Bates, a body confidence coach and passionate advocate for inclusivity, to explore how fostering a welcoming and body-positive environment can significantly impact salons. We delve into the importance of representation and the need for salon owners and teams to actively create spaces where all individuals feel valued and empowered, regardless of their shape, size, or background. Amy shares her journey and insights on how understanding body image issues affects not only the clients but also the professionals working in the industry. Tune in as we discuss actionable strategies that salon owners can implement to cultivate a more inclusive atmosphere, ultimately enhancing the overall client experience and team dynamics.
Diving deep into the realms of body confidence and inclusion within the salon industry, Amy Bates brings a fresh perspective that challenges the status quo. We explore how the salon environment can either bolster or undermine a client's self-esteem, with Amy sharing her journey from police work to becoming a body confidence coach. Her insights reveal the profound impact that inclusivity can have, not just on clients but also on salon professionals and owners. The conversation touches on the necessity of creating spaces where all body types are celebrated and accepted, emphasising that the salon should be a sanctuary for everyone, regardless of size, shape, or background. We reflect on the real-world implications of body image issues in the salon and how professionals can better support their clients in navigating these challenges. This episode underlines the importance of empathy, understanding, and the need for salon owners to adopt inclusive practices to foster a welcoming atmosphere.
Much of the conversation revolves around Amy's new book, Beauty & The Bullsh*t where she gives background on this important subject as well as actionable chapters to help readers make changes in their world.
Takeaways:
- Creating an inclusive salon environment fosters body confidence among team members and clients alike, directly enhancing the overall experience.
- Understanding the nuances of body image and diversity in the salon industry can significantly improve client relationships and retention rates.
- Professionals in the beauty industry must recognise their own biases and how they can impact the mental well-being of both clients and colleagues.
- Using proper inclusive language and imagery in marketing can help clients feel welcome and represented, leading to a more loyal customer base.
- Building a culture of openness around body positivity and mental health issues not only strengthens the team but also creates a safer space for clients.
- Incorporating training on body confidence and inclusion as part of professional development can elevate service standards and improve staff morale.
Buy Amy's book Beauty & the Bullsh*t
Find Amy on Insta - @the_beauty_rebellion
and LinkedIn
Inspiring Salon Professionals is produced in partnership with Jena, the online booking system for solo beauty pros. You can find out more by clicking my partner link here
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Brastop
- Jena
- Beauty Rebellion
- WUCA
- Tommy's Cancer Trust
Transcript
Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals, the podcast that allows every therapist, nail tech and stylist to level up, build their career and reach for their dreams.
Speaker A:Each episode we'll be looking at a different area of the industry and along the way I'll be chatting with salon owners, industry leaders and experts who'll be sharing their stories on how they achieved their goals, made their successes, all to inspire you in your business and career.
Speaker A:I'm Sue Davies, your host, award winning salon owner and industry professional.
Speaker A:Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals.
Speaker A:Welcome back to Inspiring Sun Professionals.
Speaker A:And today we're going to be diving into a conversation that is so important to our industry, one that affects our clients, but also one that affects us as professionals.
Speaker A:I'm going to be joined by Amy Bates, who is a body confidence coach, author of Beauty and the and a passionate inclusion advocate in the beauty and spa industry.
Speaker A:She is on a mission to help beauty leaders and their teams create truly inclusive and body positive spaces.
Speaker A:She is the creator of the UK's first client confidence and wellbeing app and she teaches salons how to support clients of all shapes, sizes and backgrounds, ensuring that they feel welcomed, empowered and most importantly, valued.
Speaker A:So let's get into it as we welcome Amy onto the podcast.
Speaker A:I'll see you on the other side.
Speaker A:Are you a solo beauty professional struggling to juggle everything from the endless client organiser?
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Speaker A:If you're ready to simplify your business and get your time back, check out Jenna today.
Speaker A:Find the link in the show notes and see how Jenna can transform the way you work.
Speaker A:Okay, so, Amy Bates, finally on Inspiring Selling Professionals podcast.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome.
Speaker A:How are you?
Speaker B:I am great, thank you, Sue.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:That's okay, It's.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:It's like you've been on my list for quite a long time and then you wrote that book, so we have to have you on.
Speaker A:Anyway, can you just start by just sharing a little bit about your history, how you joined the industry and how you got to be writing a book all about the of the industry?
Speaker B:Yeah, so my story is a little bit varied and Often quite different to other people that I meet that are in the industry because I didn't start my career off in the industry other than having an apprenticeship in a hairdressers when I was at school.
Speaker B:School, but not an apprenticeship.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker B:I sat the job, didn't take on the apprenticeship because I went into the police.
Speaker B:So that's where I, my, my main working life started.
Speaker B:So I was with West Midlands Police for the first sort of 10 years of, of my working life.
Speaker B:It was interesting, it was good whilst I was single and then early in my relationship with my husband, it was not good when my children came.
Speaker B:As many of your listeners will probably know if they've had children.
Speaker B:Priorities change and the way the things that you want to be doing change and a job look like the police, you need to be, you need your heart and your soul to be in it.
Speaker B:Otherwise it's very, very difficult to turn up.
Speaker B:So shift work and stuff as well, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah, you know, and it's just, it's a very, it's quite a negative environment to, to be in.
Speaker B:Like I just got very frustrated with, you know, if you don't, if you don't like something then change it.
Speaker B:And lots of people would just complain about it but not change it.
Speaker B:So when, when Riley was born.
Speaker B:So my little boy is coming up for 12 now.
Speaker B:So when he was born, tried to go back after maternity leave and I had already got an established business that I was doing alongside my job in the police doing bridal hair and makeup which came about just because I had a natural talent for hair styling basically.
Speaker B:So I don't cut and color it, but I love doing bridal and that's what I started to do.
Speaker B:So when Riley came along it was actually very difficult to try and run a business, work the part time hours.
Speaker B:I'd gone back on and make that work with a, with a child who just didn't work.
Speaker B:So something had to give and all of my love for my job in the police had gone.
Speaker B:It had all been turned into a love for my bridal work and my children and so I decided to leave.
Speaker B:So I handed my notice in and offer popped.
Speaker B:And in between growing my bridal business then full time, I had had my, my daughter.
Speaker B:So I've got two kids that keep me very busy.
Speaker B:But I evolved then through the beauty industry.
Speaker B:So I was freelancing for quite some time with the bridal work and I had a salon for a while.
Speaker B:So we had a salon in Birmingham which was all about the beauty prep that comes with getting married and all of that sort of thing.
Speaker B:You can imagine blow dry by makeup, all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker B:And then my, that did not work well with the business partner that I had at the time.
Speaker B:So when she decided she wanted to go, I did not want to keep it on my own.
Speaker B:For those of you who have salons, you will know it is a huge amount of work which with small children was very, very hard.
Speaker B:So at that point I came to my home salon.
Speaker B:So I carried on doing all of the treatments and stuff that I've been doing, but did it from.
Speaker B:And then Covid hit which we know is a whole other story of how that affected everybody.
Speaker B:But actually for me what it did was it gave me a chance to pause, reflect and reevaluate really what what I was doing.
Speaker B:And I have my own lengthy story with body image and my relationship with food and all of those sorts of things that became relevant to me wanting to go and learn more about why body people have a problem with their body image.
Speaker B:And I retrained post Covid then to become a body confidence coach.
Speaker B:But it was very much with the mindset of looking at that from a lens of how our industry impacts people's body image and to look at whether or not there is a way that we can continue to run our businesses profitably but with a more positive impact on the well being, the mental, the mental well being, the self esteem, the confidence of the clients that we're looking after.
Speaker B:And so that then just took me on a completely different journey then.
Speaker B:So the, the body image work evolved into learning so much around diversity and inclusion and then then looking at actually how the industry can do better from that perspective as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so over the last few years I have just, I, I, I feel that God gave me a voice to use and a brain that sees things in different ways.
Speaker B:And I think sometimes like that experience of being in the police and sort of having a quite a question in mind and having the confidence to talk about what I think and what I feel and the ability to teach other people kind of has just brought a lot of my skill set to together.
Speaker B:That has moved me away then from being so client focused and actually looking at working with business owners.
Speaker B:I do a lot of lot to work within, try and work within the spa industry because SPA really do set the standard for what rolls out across the rest of the industry and just trying to get some conversations started look at helping people learn how to be more body positive, more inclusive within their businesses.
Speaker B:But again In a way that really impacts that business positively.
Speaker B:And the book evolved out of all of that because as you will find out as we go through the episode, it's a really big subject and actually it's very hard to, when people ask me to talk to them about it, it's really hard to condense it down into any way that, that can be impactive in a short conversation because people have got a lot of their own thoughts and feelings about this thing straight away.
Speaker B:You know, we, we carry a lot of unconscious bias around, we carry a lot of expectations about what conversations around body positivity and inclusion mean.
Speaker B:And so it really does require some time and people to be able to reflect on the conversation.
Speaker B:And so for me, writing a book felt like the most natural way to be able to talk to people who wanted to learn more about the subject, but in a way that would allow them to have that reflection time to be able to read it, digest it, and, you know, come up with questions and be able to come to me with more of a grounding so that we can build on that rather than me having to take them from the very start.
Speaker B:You get what I mean?
Speaker A:So the book as well is written in a way that people can kind of dip into chapters of it, can't they?
Speaker A:So if there's a very specific thing that they want to focus in on, isn't necessarily like when you have to read all the way from start to end, you can kind of pick up little bits that might help you.
Speaker B:But obviously, yeah, it's not super long as well.
Speaker B:And the way that I've designed it is that the first half of it is really unpicking, like laying the foundations and the groundwork around, you know, what the problems are, how big the problem is.
Speaker B:And looked at a lot of research and that that's been done with members of our communities within the industry to actually really highlight the problem areas and where we contribute to it as an industry.
Speaker B:But, but it is in the foundation side of it that is important because I think otherwise it, because it really needs to be heart led.
Speaker B:Like we really have to tap our hearts into this subject.
Speaker B:Otherwise it feels like it will make your eyes roll out of your head, you know, like, oh, here we go again.
Speaker B:I get that a lot from people.
Speaker B:So it really does need to be something that connects with people's hearts.
Speaker B:So that's the only reason why I would encourage people to try and go from.
Speaker B:But as you go through it, then each chapter, as we move through it, becomes more practical.
Speaker B:So I think it's chapter five onwards.
Speaker B:They are more practical things.
Speaker B:So it's an opportunity for you to do some reflection yourself about your own body image and about where you might have felt difficult going to places because of not feeling included.
Speaker B:And that really helps again to get that empathy side of things flowing and then moving through really more practical things that you can do to make changes and implement.
Speaker B:So yeah, you could pick it up and literally go to the, the latter chapters and go, right, I do.
Speaker B:To change and implement new things.
Speaker B:Or you can have the whole experience and really sort of connect with it.
Speaker A:Because I think if, if you've never come across this conversation previously and I suppose to me, I know that I've been around you on and off a little bit here and there and I kind of know what you've been doing and I'm quite aware through some of the other stuff that I've done in the industry about what you, what drum you're banging and I can.
Speaker A:I get that drum.
Speaker A:And so maybe I come here from a different perspective of a, of a.
Speaker A:Like a lot of my foundations, probably.
Speaker A:I like to think it's there.
Speaker A:So maybe that's why it's sort of.
Speaker A:I made that comment.
Speaker A:But so for the people that don't really understand what the body inclusivity is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:A really good example of this is I'm a slightly larger chested lady, so I have to go to certain suppliers for bras and just this morning, this wonderful company called Brass Stock who do this.
Speaker A:But there, if you go to their website, you will find a fully inclusive, body confident platform because you have women of every shape, size, color, ethnicity, whatever kind of diverse diversity label you want to put.
Speaker A:Yes, that website is inclusive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Have you seen Brass Stop?
Speaker B:Have you ever haven't?
Speaker A:No, no, but they are, but they're like a real.
Speaker A:I think they really kind of, for me, they say all the things that, what you're, what you're trying to do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is where we should be.
Speaker A:And we should be, you know, in our salons having those images in our marketing and stuff like that.
Speaker A:And so I think that's a really good place to kind of look at how salons can kind of start working towards that inclusion side of things.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I mean, the visual aspect of, of our marketing and, and the work that we do is really, really important because there's a, there's a, there's a phrase.
Speaker B:You can't be what you can't see and it, it fits into lots of different arenas.
Speaker B:But what it means with Our, with our industry and our business is if people don't see themselves represented in your business, it makes it very difficult for them to see that they would be welcome.
Speaker B:And what happens is when it.
Speaker B:There's a couple of points that were me when you were talking about using that as an example because, because we use, we have examples of good practice websites like what you've just said there, because they represent a diverse range of bodies.
Speaker B:But for me, like, it's, it's mad that we, we can highlight the one, the, the few that do it well because it's not the norm when actually, you know, the difference in body sizes and bra sizes and the requirements for that, that's always been very, very different.
Speaker B: at it's madness that we're in: Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, for me, we shouldn't be able.
Speaker A:To pick anyone else.
Speaker B:Did we already.
Speaker B: ly in this situation where in: Speaker B:And this is where as an industry we need to be more aware because we are perpetuating some of that messaging.
Speaker B:The reality is we deal with a lot of different people and a lot of variety in the way that people's bodies look.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:However, a lot of the images that we see and that we share and that our suppliers create give an image that bodies and people look the same way.
Speaker B:And we are desert.
Speaker B:We did.
Speaker B:You know, we've got lots of treatments that help people to look trender, to make their bodies look trender.
Speaker B:And when something is trendy, it.
Speaker B:It's not actually factual.
Speaker B:That's what it looks like.
Speaker B:So this is where it's trying to educate people to be a little bit more aware of how we as business owners are perpetuating that message.
Speaker B:Because, you know, it can, it can be it not as impactive on some people as it is on others.
Speaker B:But there will be clients who are coming to you who actually these become really serious issues and it can lead down the path of eating disorders and body dysmorphia.
Speaker B:There are examples, growing examples.
Speaker B:One that I mentioned in the book is around the, the aesthetics world and how the number of body, the amount of body dysmorphia that is happening within female, more so female estheticians is rising because they are constantly being around people who are wanting their faces to look a particular way, their bodies to look a particular way.
Speaker B:And that image of perfection word I use in speech, this, these image of perfection that people are craving when as a practitioner you are constantly around that the, the mindset you have to have to not be just drawn into that and then develops some, you know, if you, if you've got, if that's something that you are prone to developing, leading to that more of that body dysmorphia, it's on the rise.
Speaker B:It is affecting the people that work in our industry.
Speaker B:So it's not even just about our clients.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And I think as well, and I think probably we are quite, we are going to be prone to it because, and I mean, I'm, I don't, I would want to stop anyone doing anything to themselves they want to do.
Speaker A:But for me, I'm not a needle person.
Speaker A:I'm not, I'm.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:Never say never.
Speaker A:But where I am at my age, like for me now, really, I think if I suddenly started putting needles in my face, it'd be, it'd be very peculiar things to do.
Speaker A:But that perfection thing is really hard.
Speaker A:And I think when you're, you know, when whatever level of beauty that you work in, whether you're a nail tech, whether you're a level two beauty therapist, level three, whatever aesthetician, whatever level you're at, you always try and project the, the positive side in your demeanor and in your appearance of what it is that your services can deliver.
Speaker A:And I think as an aesthetic practitioner, if you are doing injectables and you are doing fillers, doing all whatever, you know, I don't even understand some of the stuff they do because it's above where I want to be.
Speaker A:But if you are, if you are advertising those services, you are more prone to try and look the way your services, what, the impact and the results of your service, you're more likely to want to look like what the services that you deliver so people can see the results, isn't it?
Speaker A:If you're a skin, if you're a skin health therapist, you know, you're going to do all that stuff to your skin that you're going to promote to your clients because you want, you know that.
Speaker A:Because it's going to help your, it's going to help your services and your product sell.
Speaker A:And so I think for the ace.
Speaker B:I can never say I know what you mean?
Speaker A:Yeah, there's an, there's an element of.
Speaker A:And I think, I don't know, this may be me speaking out of turn, but to me seems to be getting a list like a little bit addictive.
Speaker A:Just another meal, just another injection is my.
Speaker A:Is what I, I kind of like, you know, I try and be quite objective about it, but that I see a.
Speaker A:Of people just like getting bigger and bigger lips or having, you know, slightly smoother this and slightly smoother that.
Speaker A:And I think if.
Speaker A:When you work at the coal face, it's really hard to step away.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And I think that, you know, we can't speak on behalf of, of, of everybody.
Speaker B:The, the, the reason I brought those up is because there are, There is research and stats that are actually now being looked at.
Speaker B:It was in the.
Speaker B:Part of the aesthetics journal.
Speaker B:But, you know, even if we come away from this, the world of aesthetics, like you've said, with skin and makeup artists and all of it like this, everything that we do there is a level of ideal, a level of the perfect eyebrow, the perfect eyelash, the perfect hair length, all of those things.
Speaker B:So what?
Speaker B:And you, you said a great phrase.
Speaker B:And this comes up for me all the time.
Speaker B:I want people to do what they want to do.
Speaker B:I want people to do what they want to do.
Speaker B:That is, that is literally the basis of my messaging.
Speaker B:Be who you want to be.
Speaker B:The issue is that that's not saying I'm, I'm not.
Speaker B:I'm never trying to control what treatments people have and what people do.
Speaker B:What I'm trying to educate people on is the motivation behind those treatments.
Speaker B:What I'm trying to educate people on, professionals on, is making sure that we are ethical in the way that we deliver those treatments.
Speaker B:You know, and being aware of the fact that there are these concerns like eating disorders, body dysmorph.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And even, just, Even if it's not getting to that level, just when you can tell that some.
Speaker B:Something is becoming more than just a, A nice choice.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, it's being aware of what's going on for people and having some accountability for that.
Speaker B:So I hear some fantastic stories about practitioners who have very open and honest conversations who will say no and decline giving.
Speaker B:Click Try clients treatments when they feel that it's not necessary, when that.
Speaker B:But that doesn't happen across the board.
Speaker B:It very much depends on the individual person.
Speaker B:And I think, you know, I see my role as trying to have more of these conversations, raise the profile of this subject, raise the profile of Our industry and ultimately, you know, it.
Speaker B:It's fantastic.
Speaker B:The things that we do are brilliant, but we have such a bigger impact on people's lives than just changing what they look like.
Speaker B:We, we, you know, we.
Speaker B:I talk to people all the time about what happens when people come in and see their therapist.
Speaker B:You will know this.
Speaker B:So, you know, we have this relationship with our clients that is really, you know, they talk to us about all this personal stuff.
Speaker B:It's a neutral ground.
Speaker B:So we are in such a good position to have a positive impact.
Speaker B:But if we don't know about these things that I'm talking about with body image, if we are having.
Speaker B:If we have problems with our own body image and our.
Speaker B:I mean, I.
Speaker B:I touched on at the very beginning that, you know, about.
Speaker B:Around my relationship with food.
Speaker B:Part of my story is 20 years.
Speaker B:20 years of diet culture affecting my life so much that I got to a point where I had to go and have counseling to learn how to eat food properly without an ongoing dialogue in my head because it was making me poorly.
Speaker B:You know, I hit a point where my eating had become so disordered, I couldn't eat a meal without having an internal battle of whether I was eating the right food, the wrong food.
Speaker B:And then all of this, you know, this is.
Speaker B:So when I'm dealing with clients, if I'm not aware that I've got a disordered relationship with food, and they then talk to me about their relationship with food, we are literally just bouncing off each other, reinforcing this negative message.
Speaker B:So if somebody had been able to sit down with me and hear how I was bouncing from diet to diet and struggling with that relationship, and say to me, I mean, you know, take a look at this.
Speaker B:Have you heard of this?
Speaker B:Go and look at this book.
Speaker B:Listen to this podcast, whatever that might be, whatever feels comfortable.
Speaker B:If somebody could have intervened with me a long time ago instead of relying on my gorgeous mum, who basically I inherited this issue from.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I do hypnotherapy now.
Speaker A:So, like, I do a lot of work with the subconscious and how we learn patterns, behavior.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:And it isn't.
Speaker A:As you're saying it.
Speaker A:All I'm thinking is like, and.
Speaker A:And what did you learn when you were very small?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:You know what's really interesting?
Speaker B:This is obviously a bit of a side tangent with.
Speaker B:With things.
Speaker B:But, you know, over the last few years, mine and my mom's relationship has really changed on this subject because I've been doing this work and I've been able to Speak more honestly with her about things.
Speaker B:And actually what we've learned is that where I thought my mum had got fantastic control over her eating and that she was really healthy and she, you know, would always lean towards a salad and why couldn't I choose salad and all of this sort of stuff.
Speaker B:Actually my mum has exactly the same issue that I have had and she has a really disordered relationship with food and she binge eats and all of the things that have been, that I didn't even know was happening because externally what she was demonstrating to me was very different.
Speaker B:And so this is, this is why conversations and being honest and learning is so important.
Speaker B:And that is what this topic is all about.
Speaker B:Let's just learn more about it and learn more about each other.
Speaker A:It doesn't, I think a lot of it comes down to consultation as well, doesn't it?
Speaker A:And especially if you're doing advanced level treatments.
Speaker A:Anything, anything that deals with physical changes to a person's appearance.
Speaker A:You know, mostly, you know, for most salons, full service salons that don't go into advanced levels, you know, generally we're doing temporary enhancements to somebody so it might be doing their nails or they're having a facial so they're going to have a few days worth of improved skin appearance or you know, if you start, if they do it regularly, they're going to have a longer term effect.
Speaker A:But we aren't doing anything that's that physically transformative.
Speaker A:But when we start getting into those things and, or actually do, you know, one thing that keeps popping into my head while we're talking is, and I'm sure if you've ever done spray tans, you will, you will agree with this.
Speaker A:And let's face it, most of us in this industry have done spray tans or once or twice.
Speaker A:But I think that that vulnerability that comes with a client undressing down to their briefs and standing in front of you.
Speaker A:I've, I've, I, I learned so much about humanity when I started spray tanning and I, I thought I was quite an experienced human by that point.
Speaker A:And I was probably about 40 of when I started doing spray tanning and I could not believe that the women that would come in, and even guys, but the women that would come in mainly to have a spray tan that had that, the inverted commas, perfect body that would come in, they'd be a size 10, perfect, not an ounce of fat on them and they'd stand there and apologize for what their body looked like and, and some of, and then, and Sometimes we had, you know, you could.
Speaker A:And I think as therapists as well, you then get to see people that when they're disrobed to that degree, the people that you think look really nice and slim actually are quite skeletal.
Speaker A:And you then begin to wonder if they do have an eating disorder.
Speaker A:And there's, you know, and there's a hub of that that comes with then judgment, which I.
Speaker A:Which I'm kind of very aware that I have over the years.
Speaker A:And not that I treat many differently because those people will still be going, oh, I'm really sorry I'm so bony.
Speaker A:Or then you get the other end of the extreme where you get to.
Speaker A:You do get like a larger frame person.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Who then apologizes for having, like, you know, whatever.
Speaker A:Like rolls, tires, whatever language you use.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, we see the full gambit of humanity in a spray tan.
Speaker A:And I know it's probably one of the most like, sort of throwaway treatments that we do, but I think it opens the door to people's mentality and how they.
Speaker A:How they view their body.
Speaker A:Confidence.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:And I think that it's really weird that you mentioned spray tanning.
Speaker B:So I was talking to my hairdresser about it yesterday because, again, yeah.
Speaker B:Yes, I did use the spray tan.
Speaker B:I love a spray T.
Speaker B:And my.
Speaker B:One of my motivations for loving a spray tan and something I would verbally discuss when I would do them is that you step out the spray tamboo and you feel two stone lighter.
Speaker B:And that those.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's that mentality of us being really obsessed with trying to be in smaller bodies all of the time.
Speaker A:Contouring.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, at one point I learned how to do the contouring so you could try it, like, you know, enhance people's bones.
Speaker B:Yeah, and it's exactly.
Speaker B:And it's like.
Speaker B:But the point that I'm getting at with it is that we.
Speaker B:We just.
Speaker B:Because we.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We live in.
Speaker B:Again, one of the subjects that's in the book is what I describe with an effort world, you know, which is basically some really key reasons why we have these ideals, these body ideals in our head.
Speaker B:And one of them is around fat phobia.
Speaker B:You know, we are.
Speaker B:We have been having absolutely ingrained in us that if you are in a big body, a fat body, that.
Speaker B:That it is bad.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:It's as if it's a reflection on the.
Speaker B:Your personality, your abilities to do anything, your intelligence.
Speaker B:And we are constantly striving to be in a smaller body and so when we're talking about Sprite, I mean, you know, the experience that clients could have is what I've just been talking to you about there, which is, you know, we discussed that we could.
Speaker B:We could.
Speaker B:We feel that we're going to be.
Speaker B:We fill in a smaller body when we come out.
Speaker B:So we are reinforcing this idea to them that they should be in a smaller body.
Speaker B:And I'm telling this story because I have had these conversations prior to being educated on this subject.
Speaker B:This is the conversation I would have with my clients.
Speaker B:So I know that I have perpetuated that cycle with them.
Speaker B:But actually, when you're talking to me, sue, what's going through my head is that actually that for anybody that is spray tanning still, that what you've just said to me would make a brilliant piece of social media content, and that would make a brilliant way for you to connect with clients that are not coming to you for spray tans.
Speaker B:Because what they will hear is you speaking to them about the worries and concerns of having a spray tan.
Speaker B:And also, like, for me, I used to have to explain to mine that even though they are not wearing any clothes, I'm not actually looking at their body.
Speaker B:I'm looking at the piece of skin.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:We're looking at where we're spraying, aren't we?
Speaker A:We're not.
Speaker A:When you do an intimate wax, it's like, you know, people are concerned that you're looking at whatever part.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you're not.
Speaker A:You're looking at.
Speaker A:But you're not.
Speaker A:You're looking at the hair.
Speaker B:And so that is a brilliant example of a piece of content that if you wanted to advertise a spray tan, you could do that in one of two ways.
Speaker B:You could go on there and say, come and have a spray tan.
Speaker B:You'll feel too soon lighter.
Speaker B:Or you could go on and talk about how intimate a spray tank can feel for people and how nervous they can get, but that actually it can make you give you a boost of confidence that will make you feel.
Speaker B:So if you've got something going on that you need to go and kick some ass at, like how I would encourage people to put their red lipstick on, come and have a spray tan, and you don't need to be nervous because I will make you feel comfortable.
Speaker B:Those are exactly the same service you're trying to sell.
Speaker B:One of them is not particularly good for reinforcing negative body stuff.
Speaker B:And one of them is brilliant for encouraging customers who feel worried and scared and not great in their Bodies to come and let you look after them.
Speaker B:So it's the same thing, but a different message.
Speaker B:And it's a great example of how you can do one or the other.
Speaker B:And I would love to see more people fall into that second category where we're able to see it, hear it, and change the dialogue that we have with people.
Speaker A:And it isn't as well.
Speaker A:And I think for me, one of the things, you know, we used to have quite a laugh with our clients when I.
Speaker A:This phrase I have all the time.
Speaker A:And it really.
Speaker A:It just.
Speaker A:Every time I want to say it, my head stops now of when I had my salon.
Speaker A:But when I had my salon, we, you know, we used to have a bit of a laugh and a joke with the clients about it because it's an awkward service.
Speaker A:Spray tan.
Speaker A:Same as, like, intimate waxing.
Speaker A:It's an awkward service because you, you know, people are at their most vulnerable.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, you know, they're either showing you their boobs and, you know, I mean, you know, if they have a naked spray tan, they showing you everything.
Speaker A:If they're having an intimate wax, they're showing you all of their genital area.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it makes people really, really vulnerable.
Speaker A:So we always used to try and bring an element of humor where.
Speaker A:Where appropriate because obviously some people, yeah.
Speaker A:Wouldn't appreciate that.
Speaker A:But, you know, but we'd always ask, you know, do you.
Speaker A:Do.
Speaker A:Do you want people to see, you know, your white lines on the back of your legs?
Speaker A:Because, you know, some people, you know, their butt cheeks do hang a bit lower.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Okay, bend over.
Speaker A:Let's get the white lines.
Speaker A:And we use it because you don't necessarily want to explain to people.
Speaker A:Okay, well, because your.
Speaker A:Your butt cheeks are hanging slightly low for whatever reason, it might be that you've got a lot of excess weight.
Speaker A:It could be that you've just got the shape.
Speaker A:It could be all different reasons.
Speaker A:You could be a size 10 and still have that problem or a size 20 and have that problem.
Speaker A:But we always, you know, and it's like, you know, lifting up the boobs, you know, do you want white patches under.
Speaker A:No, we.
Speaker A:Because I think sometimes you have to kind of highlight the.
Speaker A:The issues that remain, but in a nice, sensitive way and just asking them to, you know, to, you know, raise, you know, raise their boobs so that when they're lying on the beach, they don't suddenly realize they've got these big white patches underneath their boobs.
Speaker B:And again, it's brilliant content.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Because, I mean, imagine that as a As a real, you know, you could literally say the, you know, the five most common things that people don't expect to hear in a spray tan.
Speaker B:You know, it's just, it's.
Speaker B:It, it.
Speaker B:It takes the fear and the.
Speaker B:And also the fact that I think people will feel like, oh, my God, I'm the only person ever in the world that's been asked to lift up their big, like, it's, it's just making it.
Speaker B:People realize we ask everyone and everyone.
Speaker A:Unless they're like, you know, less than probably a C cup, then.
Speaker A:Then you wouldn't, but you wouldn't make it.
Speaker A:You wouldn't say, oh, we don't need to do that with you because you don't have a big enough chest.
Speaker B:It's just part of, like, what to expect.
Speaker B:And I think, like, you know, like, with your intimate waxing, you can definitely have a great sense of humor around intimate waxing that can highlight.
Speaker B:Highlight some of these concerns that people can.
Speaker B:Would have.
Speaker B:But you can make it fun, you can make it more sensitive.
Speaker B:You can, you can do it however you want.
Speaker B:But it's just having this, having this knowledge that.
Speaker B:About where people are at and be more confident as the practitioner to talk about it, to use your socials in a different way so that, you know, and even with things like you were talking earlier about your skin treatments and stuff, because people ask me all of the time, you know, well, I share before and after pictures because, Because I need to show how the, you know, how things have improved.
Speaker B:I'm like, well, clearly we're gonna, We.
Speaker B:We need to share before and after pictures.
Speaker B:I understand that, that it's part of the, it's part of the story, but actually there is always a story as well.
Speaker B:And I think it's.
Speaker B:Yeah, like, how do they feel?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Connect with people and talk about, you know, but also understanding that, again, the reason people feel so down about some of the things that we help them with in the first place is because they are taught that everything has to look perfect all of the time.
Speaker B:And so even, you know, just knowing that and always trying to minimize.
Speaker B:Just make your clients aware that you don't expect that level of perfection from them.
Speaker B:It's not real.
Speaker B:It's totally manufactured by people to make money.
Speaker B:And it's not the, the benefit.
Speaker B:It's not that, you know, it's not the reason why, but you can help them with some of those feelings and emotions that they're having around stuff.
Speaker B:You know, you can help them, you know, we know, like skincare routines I talk to all of my clients about the fact that that is part of their mindfulness.
Speaker B:It's part of their, their switch off for the day.
Speaker B:You know, it's part of their self care that in the morning they give themselves time to go and have a property wash and deal with themselves in the morning, you know, because people get lost in that around the rest of their lives.
Speaker B:So there's so many positive things that our industry has to offer to enhance people's lives outside of just the, the look.
Speaker B:But I feel that there is so much that gets very sucked into just that as the aesthetic side of things.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter what you're doing, whether you are doing aesthetics or you're doing makeup or you're doing tanning or lashes or whatever you're doing, like you can have that these things fit.
Speaker B:And whatever you are doing, you're always in that situation where you are dealing with people when they are vulnerable and they will bring these things to you.
Speaker B:And being equipped and having a bit more knowledge and understanding, not for you to, you know, for you to be the person.
Speaker B:I mean, for your clients, it's bloody marvelous because you turn up and you're a trained hypnotherapist.
Speaker B:I mean, this is marvelous, isn't it?
Speaker B:You understand their brains.
Speaker B:But we're not expecting people to do, you know, start counseling people and stuff.
Speaker B:But knowing, you know, I've designed an app that's got a signposting section in there.
Speaker B:It's designed for therapists to be able to share with their clients because it's got places that they can go.
Speaker B:People start talking to you about having problems with their children or with their partners and their support services out there that they can have, they can just download the app under the guise of the fact there's a bit of body confidence coaching and stuff in there.
Speaker B:It's a nice positive space for them to be.
Speaker B:Some book recommendation, podcast recommendations, all of that.
Speaker B:But there's also a side I have.
Speaker A:I have it downloaded.
Speaker B:That's very nice to hear.
Speaker B:But there's a signposting directory in there.
Speaker B:And it's there for this reason because we can have a more positive impact when they leave us.
Speaker B:And that's what.
Speaker A:What would be, is it not?
Speaker A:And I think the nice thing with the app is, is that that whole directory thing, because like you say, we can suggest to a client, you know, we may, we may see something in a client where we think, oh, there's a possible red flag here for, for untold different reasons.
Speaker A:But once they're on the app, the amount of signposting on there is amazing.
Speaker A:So if they do go on there for one thing, and they start looking through the different things that are available on there and the different subjects that you have on there, then inadvertently you may be signposting that client to get some really necessary help that would help them in their lives.
Speaker A:That may actually, you know, I mean, for example, you know, I know one of the things that I spotted on there was about domestic abuse.
Speaker A:We know the impact, you know, as women that work on women, we see so often the results of that.
Speaker A:And whether that be from coercion or whether it be physical or mental, whatever it may be, we often see our clients sitting in front of us and sometimes they disclose and sometimes they don't.
Speaker A:But it isn't always our place to make that intervention directly with them.
Speaker A:And so if we can refer them to somewhere that there's just a little something post on there or domestic abuse, so they might just be able to look at in their own time and come to their own conclusions and maybe it can be an intervent, an interventional step that we don't actually have to push ourselves.
Speaker A:Yeah, but, yeah, so now the app's well worth having, isn't it?
Speaker A:So I, I mean the, the point of the app though is that is it purely for salon owners to pass on or is it, I mean, I'm taking it, it's on the app store, so it's open to everybody that can.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's open to everybody.
Speaker B:And the idea behind it, it's a two prong approach.
Speaker B:So there's, there's some really sort of basic body confidence principles in there so people can watch some videos, some meditations, that sort of stuff in there that will help them get started.
Speaker B:And there's the self love library.
Speaker B:So there's books that people can read that will help improve all of this stuff.
Speaker B:So it gives, it gives, it gives our industry the opportunity to have a natural way of offering, in informing people without having to do it ourselves, basically.
Speaker B:So it's there from that point of view and then, and obviously for any therapists that want to use those things themselves.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker B:It will help to change your ideas and your knowledge around these subjects.
Speaker B:So the, the read, the reading library is great.
Speaker B:I love, I love a booker.
Speaker B:You can see my bookshelf on the back, on the back of the video.
Speaker B:I love to read.
Speaker B:So I always recommend that people do that.
Speaker B:And then, yeah, the directory's in there for exactly what you've just said.
Speaker B:It's there.
Speaker B:So that if.
Speaker B:If every.
Speaker B:If every therapist in the country knew about the Beauty Rebellion app and offered their clients a QR code to download it, that would mean there would be a lot.
Speaker B:We'd have a massive reach of people who were getting access to somebody, confidence, coaching.
Speaker B:They would get access to things that are going to help them help their mindset, and a signposting directory for when they need a bit of help and support.
Speaker B:I mean, like, you can imagine the impact that that would have if everybody had access to that.
Speaker B:So it's just spreading the word and letting people know it's there so they can recommend it the same way that we would recommend, you know, the, like the latest kitchen gadget that we've just bought, because it's helped us.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:So that's what it's there for.
Speaker A:Absolutely right.
Speaker A:So one of the other things I want to kind of touch on, obviously we touched on, like, body confidence a little bit, but the inclusivity element to this.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I know that there are.
Speaker A:That there are issues that can arise from working with.
Speaker A:I mean, no matter what the level of what the dot, what the diversity is, there can be issues, for one of a better word, for some businesses.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And some of those are unacceptable and shouldn't even be there.
Speaker A:But there are some.
Speaker A:There are some physical potential limitations that being inclusive can.
Speaker A:Can raise.
Speaker A:So I wanted to kind of COVID those with you a little bit because I think it's really.
Speaker A:There's some really awkward convers that we can end up in as therapists.
Speaker A:So, for example, disability and larger frame.
Speaker A:And I'm not quite sure what term.
Speaker A:What term should we be using for people that are of a lot.
Speaker A:Because I always say larger frame because it.
Speaker A:I don't feel.
Speaker A:Because my husband's got a big frame.
Speaker A:He's like 6 foot 3 and he's always been big, but he's.
Speaker A:And he has been much heavier.
Speaker A:He's now losing it.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But he's just.
Speaker A:He's a big man.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And Whereas I'm a little person.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But then, you know, there's this.
Speaker A:It's very difficult to know the language.
Speaker A:To use the language.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I mean.
Speaker B:Yeah, that example, sue, always is.
Speaker B:I won't.
Speaker B:I can't give you a definitive answer on it because ultimately there are people who.
Speaker B:I would.
Speaker B:I use the language of big bodies, fat bodies.
Speaker B:But, you know, there's lots of different ways we can say it.
Speaker B:And for some people really embrace the word fat and have.
Speaker B:And have fat speak Fat gets a difficult reputation because it's been hoj hijacked and thrown at people as a nasty word.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so in the same way that the word queer has been taken back as a positive word that people of the LGBTQ community will use because they don't want it used as a nasty word, people want to do the same word with thing with the word fat.
Speaker B:So fat is an adjective that describes somebody's body.
Speaker B:However, if I use the word fat around some people, they don't like it.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker A:I know this is.
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, but.
Speaker B:Okay, but I think that what I always say to people, that the subject.
Speaker B:This subject, right.
Speaker B:As soon as we move into talking about diversity and inclusion, no one can put a question together properly.
Speaker B:Everybody stutters over their words because they're so frightened of saying something wrong.
Speaker B:And what I'm gonna say to you, there are better people out there than me to answer questions around the exact language and the law and all of those things because I.
Speaker B:I don't come at this subject from that point of view.
Speaker B:What are the way I come at this subject, and the thing for me that makes it important is that if you are a person who genuinely feels that everybody deserves to be able to access our services, use them, feel comfortable, feel seen, feel valued, feel heard, feel safe.
Speaker B:If you.
Speaker B:If you believe that, then you are coming from a good place.
Speaker B:I talked earlier on about being heart led.
Speaker B:You are.
Speaker B:You are leading your business from your heart.
Speaker B:So you are automatically going to be trying your best to do your best for those people, for everybody that could come to you.
Speaker B:When you are operating from that place, if you say something wrong, you do something wrong, you can apologize, you can learn, and you can move on and do it differently next time.
Speaker B:But if you.
Speaker B:If we get so scared of having a conversation, asking a question, and learning, we're never going to make any progress.
Speaker B:So unfortunately, we've just got to get it wrong sometimes.
Speaker B:And, yeah, some people will handle that situation better than others.
Speaker B:You may come up against a client and you do something wrong or you say something wrong and you.
Speaker B:You piss them off.
Speaker B:And, yeah, they don't make you feel very nice and they won't give you any.
Speaker B:Cut you any slack on it.
Speaker B:But generally, people can see that people are trying to do their best and that they want to learn and they.
Speaker A:Want to be good and as well.
Speaker A:I think one of the things that always kind of sits with me is that if you don't mean to offend and you're not trying to offend.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker A:There's a very different line, isn't there, between trying to be offensive and trying very hard not to be offensive.
Speaker A:And I think sometimes if someone does take offense when you're trying your hardest to be the nicest person you can be and say the right words, if they take offense, sometimes you can't be held responsible for that because it may just.
Speaker A:It may be that they have misunderstood the situation.
Speaker A:It may be they have a different point of view and you're just never going to agree.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think we can't all be.
Speaker A:Perfect in everybody else's eyes all of the time.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:And I think that as a professional person and then just a decent human being, if you have made the efforts to rectify that mistake or that problem.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, and, and it then doesn't get accepted that way.
Speaker B:There is only so far that you can take that.
Speaker B:But we've got to learn to just make peace with that.
Speaker B:And I really just encourage people to.
Speaker B:To lead from a place of empathy.
Speaker B:And to do that, you have to understand that not everybody experiences the world the way that you do.
Speaker B:So you don't experience it the way that I do, and I don't experience it the way that the next person will.
Speaker B:And when you come from a marginalized community, if you're not from one of those, you definitely are not experiencing things in the same way.
Speaker B:You know, if you.
Speaker B:If you feel safe everywhere you go, you're not experiencing it in the same way.
Speaker B:If you've never had somebody say something horrible to you because of the way that you look or the way the people that you love or the person that you are, then you've not.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You're not experiencing it that way.
Speaker B:So I think that that's the main thing is it's about just recognizing that.
Speaker B:That people are experiencing it differently and then wanting to learn about how their experience is.
Speaker B:And once you've learned about that, having a look at your business and going, okay, so how could.
Speaker B:How has my business impacted that person in a positive way?
Speaker B:Or maybe not a positive way?
Speaker B:And if there is a more pos could impact them, then what can we do?
Speaker B:And then you start to look at, you know, so then what can we do within the budget that we've got?
Speaker B:And what can we do within.
Speaker B:And so what sometimes people do is they.
Speaker B:They shut off to this conversation because they think that what I'm talking about is that, I mean, I'm asking you to, you know, completely overhaul your buildings to make sure that every Type of physical disability I was leading to here.
Speaker B:Yeah, Access your service.
Speaker B:But actually there are so many things that you can do before you even have to spend a penny changing your, your building round that can actually just make a real difference to people, you know.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:In an ideal world, that is what we would do.
Speaker B:And I am sure that if there's anybody that hears this who is living with a physical disability, you know, they are constantly coming up against accessibility issues.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:I would love it if we could create a world that wasn't like that, that.
Speaker B:But we can make steps towards making that very important on our agenda.
Speaker B:And if we go into places, if we go into business with those things in mind, then that starts to make a change as well.
Speaker B:And so, you know, again, one of the really simple things that I suggest people do that can help is to take a video of your premises.
Speaker B:Because actually one of the things that can be quite difficult regardless of your physical ability, this can be to do with anything, to do with anxiety, to do with people who like to plan, do go and take a video of your premises.
Speaker B:Show people the road outside, where they park, what curbs there are, what access there is.
Speaker B:Is it a ramp?
Speaker B:Is it stairs?
Speaker B:Can you get through the door?
Speaker B:How wide is the doorway?
Speaker B:What does it look like when you walk in?
Speaker B:Who are the people?
Speaker B:Do they look nice?
Speaker B:Are they smiley?
Speaker B:Are they friendly?
Speaker B:Is there space to maneuver around?
Speaker B:Because actually somebody can plan then.
Speaker B:So again, with physical disabilities, that is such a broad spectrum of what that can look like.
Speaker B:And different people have got different accessibility needs.
Speaker B:But what they will be able to do is make an informed decision about visiting your premises if you are more aware that people need that information to make a decision.
Speaker B:So go and do a video, put it on your socials, put it on your website and at least that way there is more information.
Speaker B:But lots of people don't do that because if you don't have a.
Speaker B:If you don't have an accessibility need, you forget that people have accessibility needs.
Speaker B:You forget that people are dealing with anxiety.
Speaker A:About perfect example.
Speaker A:I still operate on a very like.
Speaker A:In fact, this week's been really busy.
Speaker A:I had three.
Speaker A:I had three massage clients yesterday.
Speaker A:What's going on?
Speaker A:Three in one day.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I, I have, I mean it is, it's like a really scaled back, keep my hand in kind of little clinic that I have.
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't call it a salon, it's like a clinic.
Speaker A:Yeah, I do a few things and I do some hypnotherapy in there that's it.
Speaker A:But I had one.
Speaker A:I've had one lovely lady and I've had.
Speaker A:She's neurodiverse.
Speaker A:She does have, she does have a few physical ailments too.
Speaker A:Nothing major.
Speaker A:No, nothing that would have accessibility issues.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But they have affected her confidence.
Speaker A:She's also neurodiverse now.
Speaker A:She only is two villages away from me.
Speaker A:She's about a six minute drive away from me.
Speaker A:But I've had three phone calls with her, probably two or three texts and one failed visit and then a successful visit just for her to understand what her journey is like where she's going to park.
Speaker A:Even though I've got a large driveway that's, that's visible on all of my online stuff.
Speaker A:But what that, what that coming down my road, where exactly it is, where she's got a turn.
Speaker A:I'm like the first house on the right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:And I've gone through, I've gone through all of this verbally with her.
Speaker A:She's like, can I come and visit you?
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:And she actually came about a month ago and spent about half an hour in my, in my room with me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We're sitting talking through what's going to happen.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she was so over overwhelmed with the fact that I was happy to do that for her.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it is.
Speaker A:And I've given them my time to that freely because.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But what's the benefit to your business by doing that, Sue?
Speaker A:Well, hopefully she'll talk about me and say how wonderful I am.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what happens?
Speaker A:And how inclusive I am and how I helped her and made her feel confident.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So, and this is, this is what, this is what the book is, is there.
Speaker B:That's what I wrote the book for.
Speaker B:To help you people who are in your situation, who are running businesses in whatever situations, they're doing that to understand that the benefits to you as a business owner are massive.
Speaker B:Because actually that client, that, that, that time and the effort that you've put in with her, she will be loyal.
Speaker B:She ain't going nowhere else for her massaging now because she's.
Speaker A:Because I'm the first person that she's reached out to and has had a, and has obviously had a, a positive result.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So she will be very loyal.
Speaker B:She will refer the hell out of you.
Speaker B:And if she wants anything else doing that you offer, she'll be doing it with you as well.
Speaker B:So she will have a higher client spend.
Speaker B:And this is why you can't underestimate how understanding these Extra needs that people have can make a massive difference to the profitability of your business.
Speaker B:And what was she on that, Sue?
Speaker B:What I wanted to, what I want to touch on, right, is that for people who have got staff, if you've got hosting staff or any of your therapists are going to be answering the phone, this conversation is important for everybody who works with you, because if that client, that clients had that experience because you're running a solo business there, so you know what level you want to deliver.
Speaker B:But if that client had a Ranger salon, right, and had the phone picked up by somebody who doesn't understand, though, that, that people have additional thought processes, needs, anxiety levels, neurodivergence, physical things going on.
Speaker B:If they didn't understand that and she was asking that level of question, the response that they, she might have got might have been very different, you know, and this is why it's important that we are aware.
Speaker B:So when I'm saying, when I said to you right back at the beginning of this section, you know, leading with empathy and understanding that everyone experiences the world in a different way to us, that is something that when body positive and inclusion becomes part of your business values, then those are things that get integrated into your training.
Speaker B:It gets integrated into the way that all of your staff behave with clients and customers.
Speaker B:And that's the difference between building a business that is ticking boxes and building a business that actually really cares about the subject.
Speaker B:And I would just love us as an industry to move into being businesses who actually genuinely care about it because we're a caring profession.
Speaker B:Like, we like to make people feel good.
Speaker A:That's why we, that's why we do what we do.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And we've got an opportunity to do that at a much deeper level than perhaps people, people realize.
Speaker A:And I think, like, you know, my, my view on a lot of this and the reason, and I've always run my business this way.
Speaker A:I used to have, as we're talking about, I've just got like different clients popping through my head from, like, over my career.
Speaker A:Yeah, we used to have a client used to come to us who had anxiety disorder and, you know, and she, she, she would regularly start having anxiety attacks or panic attacks when she was with us just because, just, just because something, not just, I don't know, whatever someone else came into the salon that she wasn't expecting was going to be there.
Speaker A:You know, we put a tea on the wrong side of the table.
Speaker A:You know, she was a very, very anxious person.
Speaker A:Anything could be a trigger for her.
Speaker A:And in the end she had.
Speaker A:She literally had to stop coming.
Speaker A:But we tried to do everything to like, to keep facilitating her to come because obviously she's, you know, ultimately she's a client and she's bringing in revenue, so there's that element.
Speaker A:But also, we knew how important it was to her for her to have her nails.
Speaker A:It did make her feel a happier, more confident person.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:But in the end, she, you know, her anxiety was so debilitating, she couldn't come with her.
Speaker A:And, you know, we used.
Speaker A:We suggested so many different ways that we could find it.
Speaker A:Put her in a, you know, give her in a separate room and.
Speaker A:And do it.
Speaker A:But all of these things are stuff that, you know, and I think some of it comes with age and experience.
Speaker A:You know, if you're maybe 22 and running your first salon, whether you would have those thoughts unless you go.
Speaker A:Unless it's lived experience for you already, whether you would have those thoughts because you don't have that level of life experience.
Speaker A:And I think this is where everything you're doing comes in so brilliantly because it kind of, you know, there's an extra educational slice there that you definitely run with that can help you grow a business.
Speaker A:You know, we all know that the industry is now so full of solopreneurs, which is amazing, but it also means that you don't get that peer support in the workplace.
Speaker A:And there's an awful lot of stuff that's missing.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And a lot of learned experience.
Speaker A:It doesn't get passed down.
Speaker A:And I think that the.
Speaker A:So your book and the app and everything comes at such a really meaningful place for them because if they haven't got all of this life experience and they haven't got work colleagues that slightly older and had had an experience, whatever, where are they going to learn that from?
Speaker B:Well, absolutely.
Speaker B:And you know, when you were talking then about your lady with anxiety, it was making me think about one of our apprentices that we had when I was in my salon, and she had a panic attack in the middle of doing a makeup client, and we had to get her parents to come and pick her up and get that sorted.
Speaker B:And she ended up having some cbt and we figured out what was going on with it.
Speaker B:But this is why everything that we're talking about here, this isn't just affecting our clients, it's affecting us, it's affecting our staff.
Speaker B:If you are a solo.
Speaker B:If you are a solo business owner, you've got to have your together because you're running your business on your own and if you don't turn up then you don't make your money.
Speaker B:And so it's really important from that perspective that we, we understand ourselves and where our confidence dips and thing extra things that we need to make our life run well.
Speaker B:But if you are then working in a salon and you're working with staff, it is likely that you are going to have somebody that has some of these things going on and a mixture of them.
Speaker B:You know, it's so it's, it, it has such a far reaching thing and if you've got clock, if you've got team members and again I talk a lot about this when I'm talking to spa managers now.
Speaker B:If you've got team members whose mental well being isn't very good, who are lacking in confidence, who've got low self esteem, who are then you know, potentially many eating disorders or any of the other things because that's coming into your workplace.
Speaker B:If you don't know about it, you, you can't help them and support them.
Speaker B:If you can help them and support them, you, you're going to retain them better.
Speaker B:You're gonna, it's gonna have a massive impact on so many things.
Speaker B:And I also think that they're like.
Speaker B:You mean you, you mentioned about like the younger generation of therapists that are coming through and I, I hear a lot in different industries actually like and quite negative thoughts from seasoned professionals about the attitudes and the work ethic of younger, the younger generations.
Speaker B:But what's coming through our colleges and stuff now is the effects of COVID and that has had a massive impact on social skills, anxiety levels, mental well being.
Speaker B:So this is going to continue to be things that we have to look at.
Speaker B:I don't believe that everything is down to younger generations having a rubbish work ethic like it.
Speaker B:And it frustrates me because sometimes I feel like the blinkers have gone down on, on all of them.
Speaker B:And we're very, we generalize a lot about them but actually they're dealing with a very different world to what we grew up in.
Speaker B:So they're dealing with different pressures.
Speaker B:They're dealing with a generation of parents who are trying, trying to navigate a load of stuff that they got dished out and managed looking after their children and like it's a really like.
Speaker B:I just, I feel like the world has just changed.
Speaker B:It's continuing to change and I feel that like one of the, one of the chapters in the book is called we basically forgot what it's called now.
Speaker A:But it's basically show Us the book.
Speaker B:I'm gonna tell it.
Speaker B:So this is the book Beauty and the.
Speaker B:And the chapter is that's the way we've always done it.
Speaker B:So that's the way it will stay.
Speaker B:And I chose that chapter because we're going to talk about quotes when we get to the end.
Speaker B:And it's not the quote that I'm going to use because it's not a positive one, but it is absolutely a bugbear of mine because I have had that rammed down my throat my entire working life.
Speaker B:Because when I turned up in the police, there's a nice springy 19 year old who didn't quite get why some of the things were being done the way that they were being done.
Speaker B:The stock response was always, that's the way we do it.
Speaker B:I'm a, don't come in here with your ideas and thinking that you can do things better and thinking that computers are going to make things better and all of that.
Speaker B:I've had that attitude at me all the time.
Speaker B:But actually the world evolves, things change and there are so many things that have happened over the last 20 years that have made things much better.
Speaker B:Yes, there will be things that haven't, but there are if we embrace them and we learn and we were, you know, you don't have to do the new things the way that everybody says you have to.
Speaker B:You find out how it fits for you.
Speaker B:But if you shut off, if you get an, get your own attitude about everything, you're shooting off to all of the good stuff that could, could be there.
Speaker B:And you know, that really fits so well with, with this topic because there's really good clients, there's really good staff that you could be meeting.
Speaker B:There's really good practices you could have in your, in your salon.
Speaker B:You could open your heart and your doors to so much variety and diversity that will really enrich your life and your business.
Speaker B:But you've got to be.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I, and I really agree.
Speaker A:Like my kids are 29 and 27, so they could like.
Speaker A:So I've got one millennial and one Jed.
Speaker A:One Jed, one Gen Z.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But they're very close there.
Speaker A:I mean, but they, they are quite different.
Speaker A:My daughter was probably one of the first of the social media generation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And still lives pretty much on social media.
Speaker A:And my son's like mega gamer.
Speaker A:But you watch both of them and they both have degrees of anxiety over different things.
Speaker A:My daughter's been diagnosed as, which I hate that word because it's just, it's just a different version of normal, she's adhd.
Speaker A:But there's this like diagnosis thing and it just is like.
Speaker B:We're gonna talk, we'll.
Speaker B:We'll talk about that.
Speaker B:Finish your story.
Speaker B:I'm gonna come back to that anyway.
Speaker A:But I think that, but my, both of my kids have always worked hard and they don't shirk or like my son's just having his third attempt at university, which is great.
Speaker A:But so he's now back doing our home with us and.
Speaker A:But he's still working and still doing like part time work to make sure he's himself through uni.
Speaker A:And I do think there's this, there is a massive misconception over the younger population and especially those that are now coming into the workforce because let's face.
Speaker A:I mean, I know like there has been so few podcast episodes in this season where Covid hasn't come up and we've been discussing the impacts and the effects of it and not necessarily a Covid slight of the actual disease.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:But the knock on effect, mental well being and stuff.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the mental health impact is like you.
Speaker A:And that's what I think we are seeing.
Speaker A:I don't think the kids are useless and I don't think that younger people don't deserve anything.
Speaker A:I just think that they don't, they don't know how to be social because they had it taken away from them so many ways.
Speaker A:And unless you happen to be in a huge family at that point when you were all like in your, in your bubbles.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Unless you had a big social circle around you, if it was you, mum and dad and one child, like your social skills are gonna dive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:You know, we're humans and we need that social.
Speaker B:And I think my kids, my kids are younger than yours, so they're 12, like nearly 12 and nine.
Speaker B:And their teachers have explained to me that what they've noticed in the primary school age children is that depending on what years of, of school they missed will.
Speaker B:Will depend on when they're getting into year six, what skills they're missing.
Speaker B:So for some of them they were missing academic skills because they missed key parts.
Speaker B:Parts of their academic input.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But others they are missing social skills because they were in younger years where they're still doing their social development and that is then affecting them and that.
Speaker B:So it's really interesting because it depended on what they missed as well.
Speaker B:And for the teens that we're going through being teens at that time, for some of them that was key time in making their transition through their GCSE years through those times where they will be going from being a child to an adult.
Speaker B:So it's really worth bearing in mind.
Speaker B:And I think that the other thing is I want to touch on what you said there about the ADHD and the diagnosis, because this keeps.
Speaker B:This is a.
Speaker B:This is a regular conversation as well.
Speaker B:So it's worth doing on here.
Speaker B:For me, my last year, my family have been through a big diagnosis.
Speaker B:We'll use the word.
Speaker B:Because my brother, who is 37, 36, he is an identical twin and he went to the doctor with having really bad nosebleeds in the night when he was due to go into the office the next day.
Speaker B:So he works in London.
Speaker B:So when he's having to travel into the office and not work from home, he was having what he thought was a really bad stress reaction.
Speaker B:So I went to the doctor, obviously gonna go and speak to the doctor about that.
Speaker B:Fortunately, saw a doctor who had a little bit of going on up here and thought a bit outside the box.
Speaker B:Actually what that turned into was my brother having a ADHD and autism diagnosis.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Which has made a huge amount of sense to him and his personality, his difficulties, the things he struggles with.
Speaker B:And actually what the doc.
Speaker B:The way that they've explained that is this.
Speaker B:That the.
Speaker B:The amount of thought that was having to go into how to get to work, how to be on time is obsessively early.
Speaker B:Couldn't just.
Speaker B:It was too much.
Speaker B:And those are.
Speaker B:That was just one example of it.
Speaker B:What that then did has started off a domino effect in my family that my mom has now been diagnosed with ADHD and he's waiting on an autism assessment.
Speaker B:Because the.
Speaker B:The similarities between my brother and my mom are uncanny.
Speaker B:I had already the previous year had two professionals ask me if I was.
Speaker B:Had got adhd.
Speaker B:I'd never heard of it.
Speaker B:When they asked me about that as a thing that was with adults, with girls, nothing.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I had the same assumption that everybody does that it's hot.
Speaker B:You know, high, proactive little boys in primary school.
Speaker B:So I was like.
Speaker B:So obviously when I started talking to my brother and we learned more about him, it.
Speaker B:I have since been diagnosed with adhd.
Speaker B:His identical twin is.
Speaker B:Is waiting on an assessment for that.
Speaker B:And ocd, which we didn't know anything about his ocd.
Speaker B:Things that have been going on because it's all internal ocd.
Speaker B:And as a result, my son's school have now referred him for an ADHD assessment.
Speaker B:And so the reason that I wanted to touch on it too is because what I get a lot is these.
Speaker B:Oh, everybody wants a label.
Speaker B:And there's been this huge, you know, we never used to have this in my day.
Speaker B:And all of these negative, challenging comments about, about people having a diagnosis on something.
Speaker B:And I want to just share from my personal experience that I cannot tell you for me and my family, what a difference it has made to all of us, individually and together.
Speaker B:The reason we as a family haven't spotted it and known about it is because my mom has spent and still continues to spend her whole life saying to us, everybody does that.
Speaker B:That's what everybody does.
Speaker B:We've been milling around in a little household thinking that this is how the whole world operates and it's not.
Speaker B:And my mom has held that all together beautifully.
Speaker B:But what my mom has been bounced around for most of her adult life between antidepressants, hrt, sleeping pills, trying to figure out why she cannot function the way that everybody else does.
Speaker B:I've been on antidepressants and struggled with my mental health for a long time.
Speaker B:And all of the other things that we've talked about actually when you have an ADHD diagnosis make a lot of sense around my difficult relationship with food and why that has become so much worse compared to how other people handle those same things.
Speaker B:And for my son, he's.
Speaker B:He's 11.
Speaker B:And what school assigned to me is that we can see that he's struggling with how he takes tests and exams.
Speaker B:And so when he comes to take his GCSEs and for future reference, moving through school, he will be able to have.
Speaker B:He's to take his exams in a different room where he will have scheduled breaks throughout his exam.
Speaker B:So he will do half an hour of his examination, the timer will stop, he'll shut his paper, he can get up, reset, get his focus back, and then continue to take his exam.
Speaker B:And so the reason that these diagnoses and labels are important is not to use as an excuse.
Speaker B:They are there to help people feel more comfortable being the person that they are and not.
Speaker B:When you can't change things that you feel you are expected to change.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That you can learn and people around you can learn to work with you and you can work with it rather than fighting against it all the time.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:I think the thing that the issue I have with the word diagnosis, because, I mean, I'm quite.
Speaker A:I mean, my.
Speaker A:I was quite.
Speaker A:I wasn't shocked when she said that she was going to go and get assessed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I know she's.
Speaker A:Especially since leaving home she.
Speaker A:I've watched her go through a lot of different things and so I know she needed an answer to what was going on because she'd been misdiagnosed a couple of times that I could see complete misdiagnosis.
Speaker A:And I know that she does, she does have many, many symptoms of adhd.
Speaker A:But I find the word diagnosis is, to me, it should be more of a recognition.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:A different brain pattern.
Speaker B:I totally.
Speaker A:Diagnosis makes it sound like there's something wrong.
Speaker B:Wrong.
Speaker B:Totally agree with all of that.
Speaker B:So I totally agree.
Speaker B:And I think she keeps telling me.
Speaker A:Mum, you really need to go and get assessed.
Speaker A:And I'm like, but I've.
Speaker A:I've been the way I like the way, the way that I do things and the way I operate is how I've always been.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I've got to the age of 57.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I don't know that someone saying, oh, you have ADHD is going to actually make my life any different because I'm still going to be the same person and I've stage.
Speaker A:And I accept and understand I have traits and symptoms and whatever what labels you want to put.
Speaker B:And this is a really good example, sue, about how different people experience the world, because for you, I totally understand what you're saying there, but what a lot of people do when they have that view that you have is go, so if I don't need one, why does everybody else need one?
Speaker B:And it then turns into something that's not nice and not kind.
Speaker B:My mom is a little bit older than you, she's 62 and she's had similar feelings.
Speaker B:But actually what's happened is my mom is on the back of three failed marriages and is seeing that there are things that if she'd have known about this early on, she may have been able to have different things play out in her life, maybe.
Speaker B:And so, you know, and actually what I've said to my mom is she's only, she's only 62, she's got a lot of working life left and she's got a lot of life left and she can see that where she struggles at work and because she's employed, she's not self employed.
Speaker B:So I think that that, that makes a difference as well because there's extra support that you potentially need so she can go and make changes for those, at those.
Speaker B:That time.
Speaker B:So I think really the point of that bit of the conversation is dog alert.
Speaker A:Sorry, Dodge.
Speaker B:Again, the point of the.
Speaker B:That part of the conversation is to just really try and highlight to anybody that is, has maybe the negative feelings and speaks.
Speaker B:Speaks them or has clients that say them or doesn't really know what they think about it is to just give a little bit of context around that.
Speaker B:If it's not happening to you and you don't actually know about it, then learn.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Find out more.
Speaker B:Try and learn about it rather than forming an opinion on.
Speaker B:Because those opinions, they, they can hurt people when you actually then depending on how you deliver them and how they are made.
Speaker B:And you know, and I think it's again in these spaces where if you've got a client who talks to you and thinks that they've might have ADHD and your response to that is, bloody hell.
Speaker B:Everybody wants a label nowadays.
Speaker B:I know because I've been in that position where I've gone, oh God, yeah, that's true.
Speaker B:And I don't want to be one of those people and I don't want to push the, you know, it pulls people back in their shell.
Speaker B:So actually just have been able to have a bit more of an open mind about it and a, an attitude of let's learn could make a massive difference to the impact that you have on somebody.
Speaker B:So I just think I'll just.
Speaker B:Because you brought it up, I thought it was an important bit of conversation.
Speaker A:I love my daughter.
Speaker A:She does.
Speaker A:She's on Instagram and she does she like.
Speaker A:She'll just do like a whole day in the life of someone with adhd.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:That's all these like all these little stories every day of different things that go in for her head or whatever.
Speaker A:And it is.
Speaker A:And I do, and I do recognize an awful lot of myself in, in that and yeah, so she just blamed, she blames me for it completely.
Speaker A:Which is fine.
Speaker B:I think it suits them.
Speaker B:When you, if you've got a, an ADHD brain, being self employed works really well because if you.
Speaker B:It can come with a lot of creativity, it can come with a lot of needing to work to your own rules and stuff like that.
Speaker B:And so, you know, it's made a lot of sense for me about why I struggled to fit in in the police because it just didn't.
Speaker B:Just didn't work.
Speaker B:And some of the key traits for me are, you know, that I have a really strong sense of justice and fairness in the world and it felt like that with police was the place to do that.
Speaker B:But actually this is exactly the same.
Speaker B:It's the same thing.
Speaker B:This, what.
Speaker B:This mission that I'm on with beauty rebellion is the same thing.
Speaker B:It's about trying to Make a world that is fairer and kinder because it's important and it.
Speaker B:But it's really fueled quite badly by my ADHD brain because it just like, can't switch off from.
Speaker A:It isn't.
Speaker A:I think you.
Speaker A:And you do see so much ADHD amongst entrepreneurs, don't you?
Speaker A:I mean, it's just huge.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Spectrum.
Speaker A:All like everything sort of divergent.
Speaker B:And I think that that's, you know, like we were saying earlier about the world changing.
Speaker B:Like part of the reason that we didn't have it back then when we were at school, it didn't.
Speaker B:It didn't even come.
Speaker B:It even go onto the list of things that you could be recognized for.
Speaker B: Until: Speaker B:No one was looking for it.
Speaker A:I was.
Speaker A:Yeah, I had.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they've done it.
Speaker B:And all of the research has been done on boys.
Speaker B:It's not been done on girls.
Speaker B:So that's why there are now a lot of women that are finding this out because they're now trying to learn more about that.
Speaker B:So this, this is what I'm saying.
Speaker B:Like when we don't know about it, like, let's form opinions based on things we actually know rather than just isn't.
Speaker A:I think like what you were saying about that thing about if.
Speaker A:Because things have always been the same, we don't need to make any changes because it's the way we've always done it.
Speaker A:And I think that we do need to make changes because there are, you know, now we do recognize, and I do think recognize is the right word.
Speaker A:We don't diagnose the world with adhd.
Speaker A:We recognize that people in the world have ADHD and have different.
Speaker A:Different ways of living as a human because that's all it is.
Speaker A:It's just different ways our brains work.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I think that we just need to recognize that we are diverse and that we can't.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:We can't.
Speaker A:We can't know everything all the time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Not everyone's made the same way we are.
Speaker A:And, and just having a bit of recognition of people's differences, isn't it.
Speaker A:It's like if we were all the same, it'd be so boring.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And also some.
Speaker B:Some openness.
Speaker B:Some openness and a willing.
Speaker B:A willingness to accept that just because you don't understand something or you don't feel that way, that doesn't mean that other people are not.
Speaker B:Because you know that that covers so many areas on this subject.
Speaker B:But even just the ones we've talked on in terms of like people with anxiety, if you don't get anxiety, you won't understand what it feels like to have anxiety and then therefore how difficult things can be to do.
Speaker B:If you don't have adhd, you won't understand how difficult it is to constantly have a brain that is talking and often being quite mean to you.
Speaker B:If you are not a trans person, you won't understand how it feels to feel like you're not in the right body.
Speaker B:That doesn't mean it's not happening.
Speaker B:So there are a lot and it, it's just coming to a place of going.
Speaker B:I don't know it all and I want to learn about it.
Speaker B:So yeah, let's, let's learn and be more open to everybody.
Speaker B:And I just think we are in a beautiful position as an industry because we have access to so many people.
Speaker B:When we do good things, it ripples us far because we can reach so many people.
Speaker B:So, you know, we, we are an industry that's made up of a high percentage of women.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And therefore things that women deal with and you know, that, that are, that are happening to their bodies, for example, as an industry, we could really help educate on that.
Speaker B:So, you know, I follow a company called WUCA that or Walker that do the period pants.
Speaker B:And their Instagram is full of education around periods that you would not even believe is true because there's so much to know about it and it's happening to so many people.
Speaker B:It happens to loads of people in our industry, loads of our clients, and we just keep it as a bit of a taboo subject that we don't really discuss and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker B:And they are taking that subject and minimizing the embarrassment around it.
Speaker B:And they're talking about it and telling you what to expect and telling you what to.
Speaker B:What you might feel and how it's different for everybody and talking about pain and how to manage it and whether you should even have it and, And I feel like that's just one example of in, in an industry that is so heavily dominated by people who are experiencing that on a monthly basis.
Speaker B:And yet, look, we could be a real pillar for change in education.
Speaker B:Like, do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:It's just one example of it.
Speaker B:But yeah, we can be.
Speaker B:So we can.
Speaker B:We could make some real positive change.
Speaker A:The opportunity we have for awareness raising.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:In so many areas is so huge.
Speaker A:And just two examples, cervical cancer or any female cancer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But cervical cancer particularly, I lost a friend to the cervical cancer way back.
Speaker A:And so every year when we Instead, where the guys were doing Movember, we did February and we used to do intimate waxing.
Speaker A:We used to, like, give money off all of our intimate waxes for the whole of January to Joe's Cancer Trust.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And so I did.
Speaker A:We did that every January for years.
Speaker A:But also I was just at Salon Life last year and her name's gone completely out of my head.
Speaker A:But she works with Adam Chatterley.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she has lost.
Speaker A:She's had.
Speaker A:She's had, like, baby loss and miscarriage and she's.
Speaker A:She said, honestly, the.
Speaker A:Everybody was just in pieces listening to Dory.
Speaker A:But it's something, you know, she now works very closely with Tommy's.
Speaker A:The trust that deals with all of the, like, the baby loss.
Speaker A:It's just, you know, all of those rainbow babies and stuff, it's just so awful.
Speaker A:But as women.
Speaker A:How many women in our industry have experienced that?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And just don't talk about it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's just.
Speaker A:And it's another level of inclusion, isn't it?
Speaker A:You know, inclusion doesn't have to be about having larger clients or having trans clients or having black clients or.
Speaker A:Yeah, whatever.
Speaker A:Whatever.
Speaker A:Whatever label of diamonds.
Speaker B:It's about.
Speaker B:It's about acknowledging that humanity.
Speaker B:People are experiencing different things.
Speaker B:And like you said, the reach that we have is massive.
Speaker B:Tommy's is one of the.
Speaker B:Thomas is one of the charities that's on the signposting directory on the app.
Speaker B:Because I think you probably.
Speaker B:You're talking about Yvonne Hebden, that from time to time is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So Yvonne used to be at the UK Spa association and she's now working for Tommy's and she's showing up at all of the shows as something different because.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:She knows that it has the capacity to.
Speaker B:To raise a lot of awareness within this industry.
Speaker B:100.
Speaker B:So, you know, like.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker B:I love your fanuary thing.
Speaker B:I mean, that is.
Speaker B:That is.
Speaker A:It's just a whole national campaign.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And this is.
Speaker B:This is what I mean, you've got as an opportunity as a business owner to do so much more, to be.
Speaker B:To have so much positive impact on.
Speaker A:People doing that locally.
Speaker A:We were.
Speaker A:Well, there was, I think the third year we did it, I managed to get a couple of friends in their salons to do it as well.
Speaker A:And I think overall we were.
Speaker A:We probably raised about, I don't know, 750 quid for Joe's Cancer Trust, but.
Speaker A:But generally I was the only person doing it.
Speaker A:But every year.
Speaker A:And I know this.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:That this shouldn't be why you do it, but every year so that we could raise awareness on the front cover of our local newspaper with the photographer with us, make, you know, making.
Speaker A:Oh, you know, just like comedy, intimate waxing.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:But it raised awareness for the cancer trust.
Speaker A:It brought us more clientele, it made us more trustable, more understandable.
Speaker A:Recognizing that we understood that if you have diagnosis.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We understand what it's all about.
Speaker A:And it does so much.
Speaker A:I mean, to a degree, it is like a business plus because it does bring you brand awareness and all that kind of thing.
Speaker A:Yeah, but you're also spreading a message of positivity that, like, this doesn't have to be something we stick on a back shelf.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:And the reason it's there, sue, is because you've opened your mind, you had some lived experience because it happened to your friend.
Speaker B:But what.
Speaker B:And so what this is doing is making people think, how can I actively go and learn about other lived experience so that you can do something positive like that?
Speaker B:You know, you could.
Speaker B:You.
Speaker B:You find out about various things that are going on.
Speaker B:You'd have something.
Speaker B:You could have something every month that you were doing.
Speaker B:But this is things like, for me, like what you.
Speaker B:What you've been doing there, that should also then be in our industry circulars going round with the, you know, the platforms that share about our standards and stuff.
Speaker B:Because if you're doing that, that would work so well for a lot.
Speaker B:And then, then all of a sudden, because Movember, I mean, we've got bloody huge mustaches being grown left, right and center.
Speaker A:January would be marvelous because I'm.
Speaker A:I'm sort of quite good mates with.
Speaker A:With Helena Biggs.
Speaker A:And if I'm doing stuff quite often, she will cover things for me.
Speaker A:And I think we did get in scratch for it, but, yeah, they were the only industry magazine that kind of took any notice of what I was doing.
Speaker A:And it's not.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, and I didn't go into.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I didn't send it to every industry magazine.
Speaker A:It's probably because I just knew Helena.
Speaker A:But it, but it.
Speaker A:We have the opportunity and we need to make the industry set up and recognize that there are things like cervical cancer, there are things like baby loss.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:There are things like terrible periods and endometriosis and all sorts of horrible things that as women that we go through that we just don't talk about.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'd love to see some of those industry.
Speaker B:The.
Speaker B:The industry press, the industry awards people recognizing creativity and innovation that is around people not Just about a new product that they've developed, line that's been developed, or a new treatment that's coming out.
Speaker A:That was my plan with like, like we've done an education journal was much more about getting away from all of that.
Speaker A:I mean, we tried very hard to not have any product led stuff in there because, I mean, to a degree you have to, because of advertising and things.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it shouldn't be about that.
Speaker B:But if we grow, if we grow the things that people get recognized for, it gets talked about more, becomes more mainstream.
Speaker B:So if you were picking up, you know, if that was being recognized, if people are being recognized for being, you know, one of the awards companies that I have worked with, one of the smaller awards companies, I talked to their owner about having an inclusion award, an award for businesses that are actively being inclusive.
Speaker B:And actually after a couple of years of doing that with them, they've now added inclusive sort of behaviors as part of their standards that they want from the businesses that are entering their awards.
Speaker B:You know, what a change that's made.
Speaker B:Gone from absolutely no acknowledgment of it to people actually physically receiving awards for their efforts and then it becoming standard practice within that awards company that they actually talk to people about that.
Speaker B:You know, that's what I'm talking about.
Speaker B:We can go from here to here when we, when we recognize that actually there is more to this business.
Speaker B:Like, and I think, I really hope people feel inspired off the back of this episode to just go, I've got more in me than this.
Speaker B:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:I cannot reach people and have an impact and make some difference and start these February hashtags off and whatever let's.
Speaker A:Be forever thing, really.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So yeah, like I said, I wrote the book because it's a really big subject.
Speaker B:Soon we could go for hours and hours.
Speaker A:I know we could.
Speaker B:We probably.
Speaker A:And there's so much we haven't even covered.
Speaker A:Isn't it about, you know, about how if you, if you have a difference of any kind in the workplace, how that can single you out and the bullying and all of that kind of stuff that we can, we can have as a result of.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Our behaviors and our employer not understanding.
Speaker B:And what would be, what would be really interesting is when this episode goes out, when you do your socials, if there are particular things that people want to hear more about or want to bring to the, you know, questions that they want to bring and stuff, then maybe what we could do is do like a bit of a follow on on it because it's such a big subject.
Speaker B:So if there's stuff that people want to know, please encourage them.
Speaker B:You know, please come and speak to me.
Speaker B:I, I am, I'm here to help and share in as best way that I can.
Speaker B:You know, they, they're part my, my business is a business.
Speaker B:At the end of the day, it's very mission led.
Speaker B:But I have training that people can come and do.
Speaker B:The book is there to help people, you know, so reach out to me and at the very least download the app.
Speaker B:It literally costs you no money.
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker B:It's a free app.
Speaker B:Get it, use it, talk to your clients about it and give me a follow on socials because you'll be able to pick stuff up off there.
Speaker B:There's always resources going out.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And, and if there's questions, then, then let them know to you.
Speaker B:And if you feel like we could.
Speaker B:It's something that needs a further conversation, we could just do another, another session.
Speaker A:I know.
Speaker A:Well, I'm going to be doing March 18.
Speaker A:It's quite exciting thing I'm doing.
Speaker A:First time, I think, I think it's possibly the first time an industry podcast has done this.
Speaker A:But I'm going live in Clubhouse.
Speaker A:Like what am I doing?
Speaker A:But there's a plan to go live in Clubhouse.
Speaker A:We're going to have.
Speaker A:It's going to be a panel podcast talking about social media and why you maybe don't want to be on it so much nowadays.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker A:And how you can move your business away from social media.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yes, we're gonna be doing a panel.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And I've, I've got quite a few.
Speaker A:I said like now, now I've set one up, I'm thinking, oh, maybe because I've got six episodes where I haven't got a plan.
Speaker A:I was gonna stop this one at the end of like I was going to do 20 this episode this season and I've realized that stops me at 93.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So then it.
Speaker A:Or 94.
Speaker B:It's a weird number.
Speaker A:I've got six to get to 100.
Speaker B:That's amazing.
Speaker A:Why stop at 94?
Speaker A:That seems like a really random number to stop at.
Speaker A:So I might, I might actually do some more panels and stuff.
Speaker A:I've got, I've got to see where it goes.
Speaker A:But, but I think it'd be quite interesting to have like a kind of.
Speaker A:Yeah, sort of like an inclusivity panel might be quite interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Let's, let's have a look.
Speaker B:Let's.
Speaker B:Let's see what comes up and give me your thoughts and we can.
Speaker B:Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:But so anyway, so how can people connect with you?
Speaker A:What's the best way for them to find you?
Speaker B:Okay, so if you.
Speaker B:I'm on.
Speaker B:I'm on Instagram and LinkedIn and Facebook.
Speaker B:So my business is the Beauty Rebellion.
Speaker B:Amy Bates on LinkedIn you can.
Speaker B:Instagram is the Beauty Rebellion with some underscores in the middle and you'll find me on Facebook.
Speaker B:So my website is their details in the show notes.
Speaker B:Yeah, we'll pop them in there and then Beauty Rebellion does UK is the website.
Speaker B:So you will be able to find me on any of those.
Speaker B:In any of those ways.
Speaker B:So yeah, like I said, come and.
Speaker B:Come and hang out and give me a follow and hopefully I can give you some help and support with.
Speaker A:And also two, two final things we didn't discuss me and my red lipstick.
Speaker A:Let's discuss.
Speaker B:Doesn't she look fabulous?
Speaker A:But anybody that's known me for a really long time time knows that the red lipstick was always.
Speaker A:You'd see me, you'd see like black eyeliner lipstick.
Speaker A:Yeah, not necessarily.
Speaker A:I would never wear.
Speaker A:I have had.
Speaker A:I have worn falselashes occasionally, but I've got quite long.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I've always had quite a big eye thing going on with the red lipstick.
Speaker A:And I was saying to me before we started this, I've suddenly got a.
Speaker B:Way of life.
Speaker A:Shining on me.
Speaker A:Oh, hang on, let's move that way.
Speaker A:Gorilla Glue in the background.
Speaker A:Building site alert.
Speaker A:Still going on.
Speaker A:But I was saying to Amy before we started recording that I decided this morning because I know Amy has actually, we should probably say as well, Amy has a range of lipsticks in a variety.
Speaker A:I've always said it's eight shades of red.
Speaker B:There's three.
Speaker B:There's three shades.
Speaker B:I thought Brave and Rebel, depending on how confident you are with a red lipstick.
Speaker B:But yes, who knows that I am a big advocate of red.
Speaker B:Red lipstick because of how it makes you feel and hold yourself differently.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Indeed.
Speaker A:And I was saying I nearly always have red nails.
Speaker A:I'd most.
Speaker A:It's my most common color for now color.
Speaker A:But over the last few years I've actually stepped away from red lipstick and this lipstick I probably should be in the bin really because I haven't really used it for a few years but.
Speaker A:But I was always known for having like, yeah, quite a.
Speaker A:Quite a in your face makeup.
Speaker A:Really very simple but quite in your face and.
Speaker A:And I haven't worn red lipstick for so long.
Speaker A:And then this morning I thought you Know what?
Speaker A:Amy's coming on.
Speaker A:I'm going to get my red lipstick out.
Speaker A:And I had so many internal.
Speaker A:Look how I'm getting.
Speaker B:I know, yeah.
Speaker B:It's like this is what this is doing, sue, is it's making a very big point that you need to wear your red lipstick more because you have had some ridiculous internal dialogue about your age and whether it's appropriate and all of those sorts of things.
Speaker B:And this is a rewind right back to the very start of the point of this conversation is that we are living under an umbrella of ridiculous body ideals that have been created outside of us.
Speaker B:Majority, majority have it out of it has been made for either the fashion industry to make money, men to get you to marry them.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's based on very old fashioned stuff and what it does is then throws up an internal dialogue of what is appropriate, etc, etc.
Speaker B:And if people take anything from this, it is that everything is appropriate.
Speaker B:If it is you, if it makes you feel good, if it makes you feel yourself, then it is.
Speaker B:It's always appropriate.
Speaker B:Like you don't.
Speaker B:We do not have to conform to this absolute nonsense.
Speaker B:It's why it's called, why the book is called Beauty in the.
Speaker B:It is absolutely calling out these, it's calling out the standards that have been set and it's calling out those mind monkeys that repeat keep this thing on a loop for us.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, when I turned 50, I went to Ibiza for the first time because I kind of missed it because we were buying children and stuff.
Speaker A:So back in the 90s when the White island was massive, I never got to go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So when I was 50 I started going.
Speaker A:I, I went every year up until Covid and I did go a couple of years ago.
Speaker A:And I love it out there because it's just, there is no judgment.
Speaker A:Like you're done, you know, you're standing on a beach, sunset, next to like an 18 year old who's like next to some Derek person and they don't give.
Speaker A:And I think and that it was so liberating but that, but really weirdly.
Speaker A:And I think probably since COVID when I stopped wearing makeup as much because you're in the house, the red lipstick kind of probably that's probably about the point.
Speaker A:It disappeared because I just stopped wearing makeup so much.
Speaker A:And then when I came back to wear makeup more, it felt quite Whoa.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then there's that whole thing of like, you know, like now especially I'm gonna be 58 this year.
Speaker B:It's like, yeah, that.
Speaker A:Or should I?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Well, you'll notice on your red lipstick that doesn't have an age limit.
Speaker A:No, it doesn't.
Speaker A:I'll have to look on it and see if there's an age limit.
Speaker B:It doesn't say you can't wear me if you're over people.
Speaker A:So anyone coming to professional people.
Speaker A:Well, this will go out on Monday after pb.
Speaker A:But if you did see me at pb, did I wear red lipstick or not?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think you're gonna wear your red lipstick.
Speaker B:I think you're feeling inspired after today.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But anyway, so that was one thing I just wanted to kind of recognize and just say, don't ever stop wearing the red lipstick.
Speaker A:It's a bit like the purple hat thing.
Speaker A:It's like you should always have once you're old.
Speaker A:But yeah, the last thing, the quote.
Speaker A:So what.
Speaker A:What quote inspires you to.
Speaker A:To live your life by.
Speaker B:Well, first of all, I love a quote, sir.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Some people do not like quotes and they call you a quote.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But I love them.
Speaker B:I love them because I feel that they come at a really.
Speaker B:Like, they'll come to you when you need them.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But one of them that stays with me, which is.
Speaker B:Is the motivation for my business.
Speaker B:And everything we've talked about today, it comes.
Speaker B:It's a line from.
Speaker B:From a song.
Speaker B:The song Scars from you, Scars from your Beautiful by Alessia Cara.
Speaker B:There's a line in that where she says, you don't have to change.
Speaker B:The world can change its heart, so the world can change it heart is what I wrote down as my quote on my post.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker B:When you were asking me about quotes.
Speaker B:Because does.
Speaker B:That is what I believe.
Speaker B:It keeps me motivated that it's not up to you as a person to have to change who you are to fit the world.
Speaker B:The world needs to change the way that it.
Speaker B:Its heartbeats and that it, you know, allows people to be what.
Speaker B:What they want to be and fit anyway.
Speaker B:You know, it's.
Speaker B:And that.
Speaker B:That for me is when I.
Speaker B:When business gets hard and you have them days where you think, oh my God, what am I doing?
Speaker B:Just go and get a job.
Speaker B:You know, when it can feel like that, that's what keeps me motivated.
Speaker B:Because I feel that until more people are having this conversation and this becomes more mainstream, that at the minute I've got to keep going with this conversation and keep raising these.
Speaker B:These uncomfortable things, keep raising, you know, challenging some of these ideas and beliefs that people have because they're just not getting the opportunity to, to challenge them themselves and just.
Speaker B:But in a way that hopefully makes people feel comfortable to be uncomfortable because.
Speaker A:It'S important and I think as well is it.
Speaker A:It'll be nice when you know, like the company I was talking about the beginning with Bra Stop or Dove don't stand out as unusual.
Speaker B:I think that that would be brilliant.
Speaker B:But at the moment I am having people I, I regularly get told that when in, in the world of spa when that they try to diversify the images.
Speaker B:There have been people who have told.
Speaker B:Told marketing teams and stuff like that to take those images down because it doesn't represent the spa properly.
Speaker B:There are examples time and time again of behaviors and attitudes that are old.
Speaker B:They have no place in the world that we're in anymore and they are based on like really old fashioned values and they need to change and we need to get real about actually the people that we look after and the people that we serve and the people who work in our industry and stop perpetuating this, this cycle.
Speaker B:So yeah, whether we're.
Speaker B:I feel we're far away from it at the minute, sue, but I absolutely share your vision that hopefully one day it won't, it will be odd if you don't mark it in that way and not, you know.
Speaker A:And I think as well is that I don't say look because it just carries a conversation a bit longer.
Speaker A:We're going to stop.
Speaker A:But, but just that thing of like, you know, if you are doing images of your salon, if you have a diverse.
Speaker A:And I hope that your salon has a diverse client base because it should.
Speaker A:But ask your clients, do they mind having photographs taken?
Speaker A:Can that, can they come and model for you?
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:So many of them would be flattered.
Speaker A:And then put those images on your website.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just be more conscious.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:Tell people who you are.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:As a business.
Speaker B:And if you haven't got a very.
Speaker B:If your client base all looks the same, that's also a reflection point for you as well about like how who you're attracting and why you're attracting them and what message it sends.
Speaker B:If there isn't any diversity there because you, you're just going to have the same, the same people.
Speaker A:An ideal client is one thing, but it doesn't mean that you should exclude diversity.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, yeah.
Speaker B:And I think you know what I mean.
Speaker A:Because, because I think you know, but if you start going really heavily down ideal clients then you can end up excluding many people for many reasons and that could be financial location where it could be all different sorts of things.
Speaker A:But it can also end up in a discriminatory point as well.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean that whole ideal clients thing, it is, it's a big, that's a big topic as well.
Speaker B:So we'll save that for another one.
Speaker A:But yeah, because otherwise we'll be, we will be here all day.
Speaker A:But I thank you so much for coming on Amy and what we do.
Speaker A:We're going to hit the stop button.
Speaker A:We'll, we'll catch up on the other side in a sec.
Speaker A:But thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker A:It's been really.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And a really eye opening conversation.
Speaker A:I hope for many people, for some, hopefully it's made them realize actually no, they're doing the right thing in a lot of ways.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker A:But if you have got gaps, then check out Amy's book and it will help you maybe feel them a little bit.
Speaker B:Well, that's lovely.
Speaker B:So thank you for having me.
Speaker A:That's okay.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker A:So that was Amy Bates, author of Beauty and Bullshit.
Speaker A:And I really hope that this episode has given you some insights into maybe some ways you can rethink your business slightly or if you don't have a business and you're sell on pro, but maybe how you can work differently with your client.
Speaker A:Best.
Speaker A:There are many, many ways to be inclusive and it doesn't have to come down to, you know, what everybody always thinks of and like we've been discussing today, you know, even down to, you know, understanding people's anxiety, understanding people's reactions to baby loss and stuff.
Speaker A:You know, there's so many different ways that you can be inclusive and you know, to help, help people realize that they're in a safe place where they can discuss these things, where they can be who they are and where they don't have to feel judged by anybody.
Speaker A:And I think that's the most important message of everything Amy's trying to do is just to like, like stop the judgment.
Speaker A:We do do it so often from a place of unconscious bias and I know that I'm guilty of that on occasion for just many different things and have been throughout my whole life and I've, I constantly strive to try to be more open minded and to be aware of new ways of thinking and whatever, all of that different stuff.
Speaker A:But do try and catch up with Amy.
Speaker A:If you, if you have got any questions, do reach out to her.
Speaker A:She is a mine of information around this stuff and she just like, you know, you've heard all the way through the interview.
Speaker A:She really just wants to make the industry be a better place.
Speaker A:And that's a better place for us as professionals so that we understand each other and understand our own needs and understand the needs of our employees and our team members, but also so that we can make a difference to our clients.
Speaker A:Because at the end of the day, let's face it, that's why we're here, is to make a difference to our clients.
Speaker A:Other than that, I hope if you have been to PB this weekend, because it is this weekend and I'm going to be tripping off because I'm recording this on the Thursday before pb.
Speaker A:So I'm tripping off tomorrow to go down and, and catch up with some people before the show.
Speaker A:And if, hopefully I will have seen some of you there on the Sunday.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And if you're, if you're not on video, you'll.
Speaker A:You'll be wondering why.
Speaker A:There was a few moments where I was saying about I'm having a shot of the light shot on me.
Speaker A:I'm literally sitting by my French doors and I keep.
Speaker A:The sun's just like beating through.
Speaker A:It doesn't look like I'm about to have a divine intervention.
Speaker A:So that'll be what it is.
Speaker A:But if you're on video, you will see it.
Speaker A:If you're not, then obviously audio description is just describing it for you.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Oh, and actually just while I'm saying that as well, it's something that's been in conversation a lot over the last week or so for me isn't it's another way of being inclusive.
Speaker A:If you have have images that you use in your business, if you click into edit version of them on social media or on your website, you will see something called alt text.
Speaker A:It's another area you can be inclusive because in Alt text you can put a description of what's in the photograph for people that are visually impaired, which is a massive, massive bonus for them.
Speaker A:But also it helps Google to see what you're talking about.
Speaker A:And because you have to remember like Google doesn't really have vision in the same way it has an understanding of words.
Speaker A:And so Google will trawl for the words.
Speaker A:So start thinking, go and Google Alt Text and see what comes up and see how you can use it to be a little bit more inclusive on your business.
Speaker A:But also as a bonus to being inclusive for your business, you will also find it will do an awful lot for your SEO and for your Google ranking because Google sees you're being inclusive, Google rewards you.
Speaker A:So that's it for this week and I will catch up with you next time.
Speaker A: -: Speaker A:That's is it for today and I will catch up with you next time.
Speaker A: th it is a Tuesday at: Speaker A:Go find inspiring selling professionals on there.
Speaker A:Join my house on Clubhouse and and there you will find an event that you can then say you're attending.
Speaker A:Come along and join.
Speaker A:If you don't remember what Clubhouse is, go do some research and yeah, Google's your friend.
Speaker A:I will catch you next time.
Speaker A:Bye for now Is your salon delivering the exceptional client journey you've always envisioned?
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Speaker A:The Salon Inspector Turning good experiences into great ones thank you for listening to inspiring Salon Professionals.
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Speaker A:Links and further information can be found on the Show Notes or on my website, www.suhyhen.davies.com.
Speaker A:all links and further information can be found in the Show Notes and there's also now the option to support the podcast through Buy Me a Coffee.
Speaker A:The links for that you can find in the Show Notes.
Speaker A:Thanks for listening.
Speaker A:See you next time.
