Howard Cooper on Managing Anxiety: Strategies for Salon Pros

Sue Davies: 00:00:02

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Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals, the podcast that allows every therapist, now tech and stylist, to level up, build their career and reach for their dreams.

Each episode we'll be looking at a different area of the industry and along the way I'll be chatting with salon owners, industry leaders and experts who will be sharing their stories on how they achieved their goals, made their successes, all to inspire you in your business and career. I'm Sue Davies, your host, award winning salon owner and industry professional. Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals.

Welcome to today's episode of Inspiring Salon Professionals. I'm thrilled today to be joined by Howard Cooper, one of the UK's leading rapid change therapists.

He specializes in helping individuals overcome anxiety and transform their thinking.

I first met Howard last year, an annual event for the control practitioners that I'm now qualified in and the system is one I use to create mindset change. And we have.

There's an annual event every year called the Colloquium and Howard was one of our keynote speakers and just blew everyone's minds in the room, which was amazing because it's like a room full of mind workers and to have someone come in and actually just make everyone just double take was amazing. So anyway, I knew that I was going to take his training, but I also on that day reached out and said, look, we don't want to come on the podcast.

So here we are. He's coming on today. He is known for creating rapid shifts in mindset, rejecting the idea that deep and lasting change needs to take a long time.

With over 22 years of experience, Howard has supported over two and a half thousand people on an international level, bringing transformational change to their lives.

His work has been featured in prominent media outlets like the BBC, most recently becoming a regular on the BBC Morning Live, as well as in the TED, Daily Telegraph and Channel 4. He's also the creator of the Willingness Ladder, a therapeutic process designed to help people shift their relationship with unhelpful thinking.

Howard has helped countless people clear their anxiety and continues to make an incredible impact in the realm of mental health and personal development.

And today we are going to be diving into the subject of managing anxiety and overcoming personal limitations, particularly in the context of Salem professionals who, like everyone else, face both personal and professional struggles.

We'll also explore how addressing personal challenges can help you thrive both in your personal life and career, and uncover a couple of the myths that surround the mental wellness area. Anyway, I will see you on the other side. Time to go and welcome Ham.

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Find the link in the show notes, and see how Jenna can transform the way you work. So. Hello, Howard. How are you? Welcome to the podcast.

Howard Cooper: 00:03:18

Oh, it's great to be here, Sue. Thank you for having me.

Sue Davies: 00:03:21

I'm so glad you. I'm so glad you agreed to. To come and join me on here.

When we met at the colloquium, I was like, I need him on my podcast because, like, he's got things to say. And if you're listening, you need to go and find somewhere you can see Howard as well, because Howard's like, he's a delight.

And unfortunately, because we're mainly audio, we won't be able to see all these magic tricks and stuff that he does. But he does some very special, special things when you see him visually as well.

Anyway, you have helped thousands of individuals make rapid shifts in their thinking. I have to get my teeth around that one.

So can you tell me a bit about the history of how you kind of came to be the Howard Cooper you are today and what made you so passionate about helping people with anxiety and personal limitations?

Howard Cooper: 00:04:09

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's. It's always a good question.

I think it really helps people to understand, especially with my background, why, essentially, it gives me the ability to better help people, which is. Which is this just to age me, Especially for those of you who are tuning in on the audio. I am still in my 30s.

I'm 30 12, about to be 30, 13 in a few months. I. I know I'm not leaving my 30s, and I will die on that joke. And I will never, not die do that.

But at the age of 15, I was diagnosed as having a severe anxiety and panic attack disorder. And pretty much every symptom of anxiety you could have, I suffered with. I was pretty agoraphobic. I couldn't leave the house.

My parents were obviously very concerned about me. I struggled to breathe. I would have racing thoughts, rumination. I would have body Tension, body cramps, wouldn't be able to sleep.

I would have a constant feeling of nausea. And they didn't know what to do with me. My parents, they took me to the doctors. Doctor sent me to a psychotherapist.

Sorry, a psychiatrist who put me in antidepressants, you know, which is always good when you're 16, to be pumped full of stuff.

Sue Davies: 00:05:16

And that's. And actually, that's a lot of symptoms to be manifesting at that age. Awful lot of symptoms.

Howard Cooper: 00:05:21

Awful. Well, I genuinely thought I was dying. I thought there was something neurologically wrong with me.

And I do a lot of self rating and, you know, like, why me? Why. Why can't I be normal? Why can't.

And the only therapeutic thing they ever did was send me to a counselor, a psychotherapist who, week in, week out, would just ask me about my week. How was your week? And I'd go, wasn't great. And I go, oh, okay. She'd say, how do you feel about the fact it wasn't great? And I'd go, not great.

And we just did that dance for about three and a half years. Right. And I didn't really understand how that was supposed to help.

I remember this pivotal session at the end of three and a half years where I got a theory as to why I was like, I was. And I went, oh, my eyes went big.

Sue Davies: 00:06:10

Oh, yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:06:11

Is that why you're saying I am like I am? And she said, yes, Howard. And she went all smug. She went. And I've known that for three and a half years. But you had to get there yourself.

Sue Davies: 00:06:21

Wow. Helpful.

Howard Cooper: 00:06:23

Yeah. I was like, what now? Because I'm still having panic attacks and anxiety. And she said, yeah, but now you know why. And I never cared why.

I didn't care why. And actually, I think most. Most of us often know why we're anxious or what our triggers are.

What we want are just some strategies so that we don't feel that way anymore.

Sue Davies: 00:06:41

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:06:41

It's not the analysis. So I kind of left that approach to look for things that would really help.

And I discovered a bunch of other tools that I would say are all in the category of solution focused. It's not so concerned with why are we like we are? But much more concerned with how are we like we are.

How do we do the patterns of thinking and what are we falling for in order to generate this anxiety? And I got so much better, so much quicker.

And I thought, right, there are people out there who are struggling with anxiety in all contexts, whether it's teenage anxiety.

Whether it's business people who are setting up businesses, whether it's parents anxious about their kid, there's so much anxiety out there and increasingly over time I'm noticing that, you know, let's get some of these things that actually work out there without people having to be stuck in week in, week out stuff.

So I trained up to have 23 years into helping people and I've been fortunate to have some really cool experiences in terms of trying, testing my work, working clinically with people one on one for 23 years.

I've become a kind of semi regular guest on BBC Morning Live as their anxiety expertise, which is always fun and you know, that's kind of me in a nutshell.

But yeah, I, because I've been there and done it and got the anxiety T shirt, I kind of have this A drive to help people and B, it's almost a bit weird in the way that I can kind of figure out what's going on in people's heads. I'm not psychic, but people have often accused me of that because I can kind of go, is this what's happening? And they go, did you know?

Sue Davies: 00:08:18

I think with that list of, yeah, that list of symptoms that you were given from when you were a teenager is you probably experienced in one form or another every symptom, anxiety and every kind of thing. It can pop up into your head and, and manifest into your physical body. You probably experienced it one way or another.

Especially now, after all those years, if you have, if you personally haven't experienced it, you've probably had 10 clients that you've witnessed how those behaviors work within their minds.

Howard Cooper: 00:08:46

Absolutely. And I think so many people think that anxiety is just feeling a bit nervous, but it's not.

It can actually have really physical manifestations and people often go, but this is so physical, it can't be just anxiety. But take it from me, look, of course, if anyone has any physical legal requirement, legal disclaimer mode, go and see a doctor.

If there's anything medically, you know, I'm not a doctor. Yeah, it could be.

Sue Davies: 00:09:13

And I think especially with, with men and is that. I've seen this more often with men is that they end up in hospital thinking they're having a heart attack driven by anxiety.

Because of that, all of the physical reactions from the cortisol and the adrenaline and everything else that's going on in your body can cause such physical responses.

Howard Cooper: 00:09:35

Absolutely. And if you looked up, you know, what are the symptoms of anxiety?

It's really funny they basically list every possible symptom you could ever experience. You know, there isn't one that, that, you know, that gets off scot free. It could all be attributed to anxiety.

So it really can manifest in some very physical issues.

Sue Davies: 00:09:54

I think one of the things I learned back when I was doing my therapist training was, I mean, it was like an eye opener back then was that thing that anxiety is literally excitement kind of flipped onto the negative. And most of, most of the symptoms that you're experiencing anxiety with anxiety is because of the negativity attached to it.

If you put positivity to those feelings, you're on a roller coaster screaming with joy.

But, but when you, when you have that negative light voice in your head that's saying, oh no, this is wrong, and that's wrong, then all of a sudden you're filled with fear, trepidation, the horrors of everything that's going to go wrong. And in actual fact, you could be on the precipice of something amazing.

Howard Cooper: 00:10:34

Absolutely.

And I think, you know, that kind of reminds me, I sometimes say to clients, you know, when they go, well, I know I'm anxious because I can feel my heart racing. And I sometimes joke that, what does your heart racing? If you feel your heart racing, what does that tell you? People go, it tells me I'm anxious.

No, it doesn't. The only thing feeling your heart racing tells you is that your heart's racing. However, here's the beautiful thing.

If I see a beautiful woman in the distance and I feel my heart racing, humans, we like story. So we'll go, beautiful woman plus feeling heart racing equals fear, equals attraction, excitement, arousal, you know?

Sue Davies: 00:11:11

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:11:12

However, if I see a spider run out across the kitchen floor and feel my heart racing, I don't go and ask the spider out on a date.

Sue Davies: 00:11:18

No.

Howard Cooper: 00:11:18

Right. I go, I wouldn't fear, you know?

Sue Davies: 00:11:22

Yeah. It isn't all it. All it is is mindset, isn't it? Ultimately, it's just, it's.

Howard Cooper: 00:11:27

We're just attaching a story to the same sensation.

Sue Davies: 00:11:29

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that you advocate is that deep and lasting change doesn't need to take a long time.

And I know, I mean, I've seen you do the willingness ladder a couple of times and I've done the training and, and I know how instantaneous that change can be.

So when you've got someone that's been struggling for a really long time of anxiety, all that negative patterns in their head and feels they're not going to break free, how hard do you find it to convince people that actually within a very short period of time we can clear that. And then the amazement when you've done it.

Howard Cooper: 00:12:06

I think it's really interesting because there is, I think, within society this very tried and tested sort of party line that we all toe in our head of, well, if it's been there a long time, it's going to take a long time to fix it and so on.

But interestingly enough, if you ever look at how they got the anxiety in the first place, you know, it's often very quick, which is kind of ironic because, you know, so for example, I was working with a dog phobic who they told me 35 years ago they were attacked by a dog. Yeah, well, that dog attack probably lasted 30 seconds. So the dog attack in 30 seconds changed their entire way of thinking.

So I think if a dog can help you change your mind in 30 seconds, what can you do with an expert when he spends an hour with you? Like, yeah, I mean, it's. But change is always happening. It's the one thing that's inevitable.

And if you don't believe me, I would put money on the fact that your listeners aren't wearing nappies right now. At some point, you know, they developed and they changed. You know, change is always happening.

But I think what happens is that people somehow think that if it, if it's a well practiced pattern of anxiety or a well practiced pattern of stress, that it will be somehow harder to change.

And I think the metaphor of thinking about it like this is kind of useful, which is, let's say you find an old computer file, a Word document, when you first wrote your business plan from 10 years earlier, and you realize, oh, it's a load of rubbish. My business thinking has massively improved. I'm going to delete the file.

Does it take longer to delete the file that was created 10 years ago or a file that was created five minutes ago? Yeah, there's no difference. You just drag it to the trash and that's it.

You don't go, well, oh man, that's been on that computer for 10 years, you know.

Sue Davies: 00:13:59

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:14:00

I think the other big mistake that people think is that they go, but my issue is because I've been doing it a long time, it's deep. It's a deep issue. I would argue all anxiety is surface issues. That's why we can treat it.

And here's why people use anxiety to stay safe, to protect themselves. Yeah, you are going into battle. Where do you put your shield which you hold up to protect yourself.

You don't put it at the bottom of your back, your rucksack on the back. You hold it close at the surface so you can grab it and it's up there. Right. The stuff that's deep, you tend not. Is. Tends not to be relevant.

You tend to forget the stuff that is anxious that you do. A lot people refer to as deep. But it's really shallow. It's really on the surface. And that's.

Sue Davies: 00:14:47

I think it's because it feels intense, doesn't it? So if. And it. Because the physical sensation. And I'm very mindful of using the word sensation because I've been with your world.

Howard Cooper: 00:14:57

Right, right.

Sue Davies: 00:14:59

But that sensation that you're feeling feels deep because it goes to your core. But what is actually is. Is quite ethereal, isn't it? What's actually going on that's causing that intensity.

Howard Cooper: 00:15:11

Absolutely. And you know, people talk about, well, it's. It's coming from the past and it's very traumatic. If you really.

And this is not the time to do these massive deep dives down into the rabbit hole of Howard's quandary. My God, that sounds odd. I wouldn't write that, would I? Everyone deep diving into Howard's quandary.

I'm not sure where that is, but let's not go there. Yeah, but I would argue that there isn't really such a thing as a past. There's just present. There's just stuff that we're falling for right now.

And the story of. In my past, I had this happen is just as now as the story of yesterday. I did this.

Sue Davies: 00:15:50

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:15:50

It's just about helping people see that and then not fall for it. So, yeah, you know, I think it's totally doable, you know, to help people overcome that. That idea that change takes a long time. Also.

I wish I could put people in my shoes, because if you spent 23 years and week in, week out, week in week out, you see people change quickly. You don't half just realize that that story that people can't change is. It's not true. People can change. I see it all the time.

So I think when I'm working with them, I'm always just in my own mind holding that space for. Well, I know it's possible regardless of how they feel.

Sue Davies: 00:16:25

Yeah.

And I think as well, though, is one of the things that you saying about that, the blood, the difference between things happening 10 years ago, happening yesterday is that our minds, you know what the thing that's causing that anxiety to surface does it just has a memory of whatever it was that triggered it. And it, and it can't actually put a timeline against that necessarily.

It's just that you've had repeated triggers that have gone on and on and on and on that, that you then associate with it being in, in like that, you know that deep set is never going to go away because you've experienced it many times. But in actually you're just, you're just reliving that experience, aren't you?

Howard Cooper: 00:17:02

Right. Would that be absolutely you just getting a bit too caught up in thinking?

Sue Davies: 00:17:07

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:17:08

That's all. You know. Yeah. But I think the big mistake that a lot of people do and I think it's.

And this is probably veering into a slightly different area or topic is I think there's this area of toxic positivity where people start going, I mustn't think these things or I must have any negative thoughts or you know, if they've had a traumatic past or something's happened where a pattern has been repeated and then they immediately go, well, I mustn't think these things. What that's really doing is telling themselves deep down that those thoughts are a threat.

And a good way to explain this is the age old analogy of if my son comes running into my bedroom one night and says, daddy, daddy, there's a monster under my bed, how effectively would it help if I said, george, there's no monster, but whatever you do, don't look it in the eyes.

Sue Davies: 00:17:56

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:17:57

The moment you say don't look it in the eyes, his brain's gonna go, why is it, it must be real then. So yeah, if you have a thought about traumatic past or this happened or that, and then you immediately go, oh gosh, don't think about that.

That's a really sure fire way of getting, giving yourself the instructions that that's a threat. And your brain will then like the shield that you hold to the surface, it will keep popping up that same thought, isn't it?

Sue Davies: 00:18:21

And it's, I mean I actually had this last night.

I was lying in bed and I'd been asleep and I woke up from a weird dream that I then started trying to overanalyze and then was going down the rabbit warren and as soon as you start trying to think about the thought, the thought about thought, then thinks another thought about the thought about the thought. And you do just end up in that kind of really dark place and. Yeah. And you just, you need to stop thinking the thought, don't you?

That's that's the key to it. It's just to realize and let it go.

Howard Cooper: 00:18:52

Yeah, Well, I would say there's a distinction which is not. Do you have to stop thinking the thought? You can think the thought without buying into it.

Sue Davies: 00:18:59

Indeed.

Howard Cooper: 00:19:00

So I, I think it's a little bit like I was doing a session this morning, actually. So this metaphor is right, right there. I had someone that every time they were thinking about this thing that caused them to get anxious.

Because of them, a little bit of work, they're sort of in the back of their head going, well, okay, this is just a thought. So I mustn't. I can think this, but what if I can't? And he had a lot of internal dialogue around it.

And so I think I like to think of it as like someone jabbering nonsense at you.

Sue Davies: 00:19:32

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:19:32

Like, you know, if you had a kid or a friend of the family or whatever who has a totally different interest and they just won't leave you alone. They just go, you know, my son likes to jabber on at me about fortnight. I don't know what it means.

Oh, I'm at this rank, you know, this level, and I got this many diamonds and the battle pass. And then you say, I got. Honestly. But he likes to chat to me about it.

And while I'm going, yeah, okay, I'm not going, you have to go away because that would be rude. I don't, you know, but while I'm listening to him and trying to sort of give him the time of day, I do have this sense of like, this isn't really.

Has no significance to my life.

Sue Davies: 00:20:09

No. It's not going to make your day better or worse, is it?

Howard Cooper: 00:20:12

Yeah, it just has. It's just there. It's just white noise. It's like, that's fine and I'm pleased it means something to you.

But so for me, it's like those thoughts I want to engage in that way, anxious thoughts. It's like the person just chatting rubbish to you that they can chat that way they can be there and it still has no significance to you or your day.

Sue Davies: 00:20:31

Yeah, absolutely. So what other myths do you find a challenge that surround anxiety and mental wellness or health?

I never like, wow, quite hard calling it mental health because I think that in itself makes it feel quite negative. So I keep taking the stance of mental wellness because it's, I would argue.

Howard Cooper: 00:20:54

Even the mental, I, I would say is. Is interesting because people sort of talk about mental as though mental health is different from body health. Yeah.

But there isn't really a mind, a mind and a body. There's just mind and body together. They're all part and parcel of the same system. So I would say health and wellness, like, yeah, there's no.

Sue Davies: 00:21:16

Let's not discriminate.

Howard Cooper: 00:21:17

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, don't leave the body out. Crikey.

I think there's a bunch of myths out there that the known ones and the very common ones for dealing with anxiety are just take some deep breaths. That's what you have to do to get better. Take some deep breaths.

So everyone talks about box breathing and this breathing and that breathing, which can have merit. I'm not saying it doesn't. The problem is, I found a lot of people with anxiety, they don't really understand what deep breaths are.

What they do is they confuse deep breaths with big breaths. And so they go. Which actually can cause hyperventilation. And over breathing.

The reality of it is gentle breathing through the nose without these big gigantic movements is deep. It does go down right into the base of the lungs, and you can be satiated that way.

So that's one of the first things this idea of just think positive kind of touched on already, because that idea of if I can't think negative, it's implying it's a threat. And plus, I mean, I sometimes joke with people.

I say, listen, imagine you're trapped in a room with a tiger, and the tiger's getting closer and closer to you, and it's about to pounce as it raises its claws and it's about to strike you down. And you know for certain this is your last moment on planet Earth before it brutally kills you.

How effectively, how effective would it help if someone just went, it's all right, just think positive? Like, of course that's not gonna work.

Sue Davies: 00:22:50

It's just gonna stroke you, right?

Howard Cooper: 00:22:53

But at that moment, your brain is going into primal threat.

Sue Davies: 00:22:56

Oh, absolutely.

Howard Cooper: 00:22:57

And unfortunately, when people fail to do just think positive or distract yourself or take deep breaths, and they tend not to work because the wrong tools. Very few people tend to blame the tools. They don't. They don't tend to go, well, these are rubbish tools.

What they tend to do is they turn inwards and they go, what's wrong with me? Why can't I just deal with this better? Yeah, and it's. It's not you, it's the tools. The tools are ineffective.

Sue Davies: 00:23:22

And I think we see it across so much of. So whether it's social media or the media generally that. That, you know, you've just got a positive Mental attitude.

And you just need to see the positive in things and you need to see the good, and you just need to do this and you just need to do that. I'm a great hater of the word just. It really does bug me.

Howard Cooper: 00:23:39

Oh, yeah, it. Well, there's this phrase, isn't there? Which is when. When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. And you know, I. I've got some friends of my wife.

I've got to be careful because they, you know, they might be listening to this. Who knows?

Sue Davies: 00:23:53

Who knows?

Howard Cooper: 00:23:54

I think some of them, you know, are going to end up seeing me in five years time with these terrible breakdowns because some of them say to me things like that they're part of the overly positive brigade, where it's forced positivity, where, you know, they say, howard, whenever life gives you lemons, I always make lemonade. But not just lemonade. Super sparkly, glittery lemonade with a cherry on the top. Because that's the sort of person that.

Sue Davies: 00:24:14

I am, and that's the sort of industry we are. Well, we kind of thrive on that stuff. We thrive on it because we have to put that out to our clients all the time.

Howard Cooper: 00:24:23

Right. But what I would say is this. It's not helpful internally to be sitting there with a sour lemon going, oh, it's lovely and sweet. I'm telling.

I think, what about this? When life gives you lemons, what if it's okay for it to taste a bit sour? But also keep in mind the sourness won't last forever.

Sue Davies: 00:24:41

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:24:42

And I think it's like just being. Why do I have to pretend this sour thing is nice?

It's not, you know, just being accepting and at peace with what is, you know, I think is a really useful thing. I think that the other big myth that I struggle to get across sometimes is that the myth of the root cause, the idea that there is this single.

I'm gonna sneeze. Hold on.

Sue Davies: 00:25:06

Oh, bless.

Howard Cooper: 00:25:11

It's nothing to be sneezed at, I assure you. Excuse me.

Sue Davies: 00:25:15

And actually, so while we're.

So just while we're talking about unexpected noises in case anyone can hear it, I'm having some work done in the house that was supposed to have been not happening at this point, but is. So if anyone can hear any drilling or weird noises in the audio, then I can only apologize.

Howard Cooper: 00:25:35

Oh, man. You could have blamed me then. You could have said, it's Howard.

Sue Davies: 00:25:38

Then I could have said, it's Howard.

Howard Cooper: 00:25:39

Yeah, he could have. Yeah, absolutely. I think the.

The other Big myth that sometimes people really struggle with is the idea that I don't personally believe that there is a root cause. People always go, I need to see someone to get to the root this.

As though there's this one special thing moment where they went from I'm fine to I'm not now fine. I have the problem or I have anxiety around it and it's not. I think there are no single root cause.

I think there's lots and lots of things that all culminate together, you know. And therefore it's a bit like trying to pinpoint the. The one grain of sand that caused the sand castle.

Sue Davies: 00:26:18

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:26:19

But like well, which one was it? It's like it doesn't really matter. What matters is there is the sand castle there. So how do we get rid of it? Right.

And that's much more interesting than looking back at why.

Because even if you ever found the theory of some therapist goes well, I actually have come up with a theory as to why it was that grain of sand in particular. So what the sand castle still sitting there, you know.

So I think it's much more interesting to sort of give up the idea of root cause as a thing to go looking for and much more functional to go. How do I learn to change my habits and patterns of thinking?

Sue Davies: 00:26:53

And I think as well is on a day to day basis, you know, we can. When in our rational minds we can have the same experience every day of the week.

You know, we get up, our alarm goes off and some days that alarm goes off and all we want to do is turn it off and go back to sleep. And other days we jump out of bed ready to go and it. And, and so if you started well lucky. Occasionally. Occasionally.

It's not that it doesn't happen that often. Okay. Yeah but. But I think it's like. But it's just. And I think you, you can build, can't you? If it on a month.

One Monday you get up and you feel like springing your step and it's great. The next Monday you don't get up that way. And then something else happens and then something else happens. But all of those.

The next things are going to probably have happened on the day you get out of bed feeling great. But it is just whether or not something you then add.

Start adding those negative things together that on the day because you got out of bed the wrong side, all of a sudden you've got a problem. And it is just absolutely how you look at it, isn't it?

Howard Cooper: 00:27:52

Well, it's there's something called confirmation bias. And what tends to happen is we, we do tend to find what we're looking for or what we're focusing on. That becomes more of the experience.

And it's, it's that thing where, you know, you drive out the car dealership having just bought a car and now everybody has the same car as you. Where, where did this happen? Yeah, where are all these people driving the same car as me come from?

Sue Davies: 00:28:14

They were, I bought a yellow car. How come I can see any yellow cars now?

Howard Cooper: 00:28:19

Exactly, exactly.

So of course, you know, if, if you get very caught up in the story of I'm having a bad day, you will feed that, you know, you will feed that monster and everything will seem like a stress and a challenge and so on. You get up on the right foot, you know, but again, the key to getting on the right foot is not to have the negative thought.

It's not to get rid of the negative thought. It's just when it comes up, it's like, oh, there's a thought.

Sue Davies: 00:28:43

Yeah, there's a thought. Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:28:45

And that's the key. That's all right.

Sue Davies: 00:28:47

Yeah, the thoughts are going to keep happening. You just have to let them float by, don't you? Meditational. We're good at meditation in this industry, or some of us are anyway. Maybe not so much.

But one of the things I wanted to mention with you is that we have got so many sign owners and professionals that, that do struggle in with internal monologues, battles, all sorts of negative stuff that goes on. Because we're all human.

Howard Cooper: 00:29:14

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:29:15

But we do suffer, I think, because, because of what we do. And we're very image based.

Therefore we do tend to spend a lot of time on social media, either showing what we do to try and promote our business or trying to find new clients and all this kind of stuff. And so, and that social media world just feeds a lot of self doubt, a lot of like fear of failure, a lot of.

And we are massively perfectionist professionals in this industry because of that image based stuff that we do. So there's an awful lot of people that experience a lot of limiting and negative kind of patterns and stuff around that. So what kind of.

Make sure, I've got my question. Yeah. What role does mindset play in overcoming those, do you think?

And is it, I mean, we know that it can be literally gone very quickly, but for people that are out there, you know, what kind of things can they look to do to try and reduce that?

Howard Cooper: 00:30:11

Okay, so I think a really practical Thing is this, you know, first of all is to become aware of what actually to get curious. Because there are some people out there, they just feel anxious, they feel worried, but they go, why?

Oh, I don't know, I just feel that way, you know. And I think the first step is always to get curious. Very specifically around, right? What images, words, thoughts am I falling for?

Am I getting caught up in? You know, it's a little bit like the analogy of sometimes I joke with people. What order do you get dressed in in the morning?

You know, and some people often when you ask that, they go, hang on a second. Oh, I don't know, hang on it. Like you do it every day. And some people still don't know quite consciously how, what order it is.

So for those people, I would say it's really hard if I gave you the instructions to do it differently, if you didn't first become aware of how you currently do it. Because how would you know if it was different? You wouldn't.

So the first step would be to, you know, oh, well, I do it this way, Put my left foot in first underwear, then my trout and so on. Anyway, the other thing that happens is this.

What would you say to someone if you said, what order you get dressed in in the morning and they turn around to you and they went, there is no order, sue. There is just I'm naked and then dressed.

Sue Davies: 00:31:30

You'd go, you've missed something.

Howard Cooper: 00:31:33

You missed some steps. Like there's. There's definitely. And when people say to me, how would I just go from fine to anxious?

That's the same to me as saying naked then dressed. What are the steps in between that? What did you picture? What did you say to yourself that you fell for?

And often it's, as you pointed out, maybe image based, but. Or it could be internal dialogue.

Things like if they're thinking about going on, on live on our social media live and doing something to increase visibility, they might get caught in the what if people don't like me? What if I don't know what to say? What if I can't do it? What if I feel too anxious? What if? And they suddenly get. And now hang on a second.

That's interesting. It's not just come from nowhere. You've just made a whole story in your head of what if thinking. You've got really caught up in that.

And that's the thinking that's triggering this issue. It's treating that thought as though it's real. So that's the first step, which is to get really curious about that.

The second thing is now you kind of know what it is. It's to do a little mental shift. And it's just a quick psychological hack. And I actually refer to this as the unplug anxiety hack. Right.

It's so simple and in fact everyone can try it. Now who's listening? Right? Which is this.

If you pick one example of some terrible internal dialogue or thing that you say to yourself, like, I'm no good or what if it totally goes wrong? And just say that to yourself and notice how that feels. If you, you could try that now, Sue.

Sue Davies: 00:33:08

What? What if.

Howard Cooper: 00:33:09

Yeah, what is something. If you have some terrible negative thought, like, what if this goes wrong? What if something.

Sue Davies: 00:33:14

Okay, yeah, yeah. What if I can't remember this Right.

Howard Cooper: 00:33:17

Exactly.

Sue Davies: 00:33:18

That's one of my things, is my memories, like, can be really bad sometimes.

Howard Cooper: 00:33:22

So in fact, try that now. Close your eyes, Sue. And everyone else, do it for them, you know, with their negative thought.

But just really say to yourself in your head, like with real intent, what if I can't remember this and just notice how that feels.

Sue Davies: 00:33:35

Yeah, it's not good.

Howard Cooper: 00:33:36

No. And now what I want you to do is you're going to say the same thing to yourself, but this time you're going to add in one slight difference.

At the beginning I want you to just say to yourself, I'm experiencing the thought. What if I can't remember things?

Sue Davies: 00:33:50

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:33:53

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:33:54

And immediately it's not. It's. Yeah. Because it's not, is it? It's a thought. No, it's not real.

Howard Cooper: 00:33:59

Exactly. You're just literally, by just going, I'm just experiencing the thought, what if this happens? That's very different from what if this happens.

Sue Davies: 00:34:07

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:34:08

So it's just that reminder to detach yourself from it, not to buy into it too much. So some people have found that really useful and they put on a little post it note.

Somewhere they go, I'm experiencing the thought that they just have that somewhere. And you find yourself racing. Look up. Oh, I'm experiencing the thought. What if this goes horribly wrong?

Sue Davies: 00:34:30

Yeah, absolutely.

And I do think it's one of the things that, that I know quite a lot of us at the control colloquium that we did love was your thought process of it's literally your head making up. Because it is.

Howard Cooper: 00:34:45

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:34:46

And. And I've used that so many times since October. Can't believe. Because it is, isn't it? And I think.

And it's when you are having those moments and just recognizing that it Isn't real. It is you just thinking.

Howard Cooper: 00:35:00

Well, I think going further, there's this idea that if you are struggling with anxiety or you have any anxiety patterns in that moment, that's absolute proof it's not happening.

Sue Davies: 00:35:09

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:35:10

And let me explain, because if I was still at the top of a cliff worrying about what if I fell? And that was my anxious thinking, that was the flavor my thoughts were taking. Surely that's proof I haven't fallen.

Because had I fallen, the last thing I'd be doing is going, what if I fell? Exactly.

Sue Davies: 00:35:27

Yeah. And I have to say that I have that one. I love heights, but I have got. I've got a bit of a thing about falling and I always get.

And the older I'm getting, the worse it's got.

Howard Cooper: 00:35:36

Right.

Sue Davies: 00:35:36

I think maybe it's your mortality. I don't know what it is. I never used my mortality.

Howard Cooper: 00:35:40

Oh, my goodness me, no.

Sue Davies: 00:35:42

Maybe not yours, but I do feel that. And I think sometimes as well, and actually you may have experience of this, is that these anxieties, the older you get and maybe the.

The deeper they go, which obviously they don't. But is there something with age, do you find that anxieties are more common or they become more.

More just more of them even, than things that never used to bother you, with no particular reason for it developing, you suddenly become. And I. I do think it's a bit of a mortality thing myself.

Howard Cooper: 00:36:17

I. It's a really good question. And the. The truth is, I don't know. I do know that if I. Well, I think. Here's. Here's why.

Sue Davies: 00:36:26

Supposed to know this stuff, Howard.

Howard Cooper: 00:36:27

I'm supposed to know. But, you know, in. In. I often say, people, the more I've learned, the less I realize. I know.

Sue Davies: 00:36:33

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:36:33

You know, because I. I think just because I feel certain about something, surely, absolutely does not mean that it's true. And that. That's.

That's my sort of default place, you know.

Sue Davies: 00:36:42

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:36:43

But if I look, I could come up with lots of scenarios that back up that idea.

I could come with loads of people that, you know, as they've got older, it's definitely, you know, more anxieties, more responsibility, closer to mortality, you know. You know, people losing their.

I spoke to someone this morning who is in their 80s, you know, and they're telling me that, you know, that their friends are dropping like flies. You know, it's a scary place to be. But equally, I could also create enough evidence, if I focus on it, like confirmation bias, to go.

Actually, I think it's the opposite way around. I think people get happier as they get older. You know, they sort of stop worrying about the little things.

And I know lots of people go, oh, I don't worry about that, that stuff anymore. That's all, you know, I don't, I don't let the little stuff, you know, get to me.

Sue Davies: 00:37:29

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:37:30

I do think we are seeing an increase in anxiety just across all ages, just in general, I think, particularly in young people is my feeling. And I think the school system doesn't help. I. I think, you know, we're.

There's this general kind of society, societal awareness of trying to shield children from any bad feelings ever, as though we mustn't, which means that we're robbing them of resilience, essentially.

Sue Davies: 00:37:58

Yeah. It's funny, I was just having the same conversation with someone this morning and saying how different it is now within schools. You know, we would.

We were talking about doing like, rope games and playing two balls and stuff like that, like the old playground games we used to play and how that just doesn't really happen anymore because health and safety and PC ness and whatever, and they might hurt themselves. They can't have a skipping rope. They might strangle themselves. You know, we all learned to just not strangle each other. It was, it was that simple.

Howard Cooper: 00:38:27

Yeah, well, I remember the, the playgrounds of the 80s, you know, when I grew up, you know, where, you know, there was none of this like, you know, nice, comfortable, bouncy, you know, foam, you know, you'd be up a metal pole, you know, climbing frame, and if you fell off, that's it. You're on concrete, you know, survival of the fittest, you know, so you have some scrapes.

Sue Davies: 00:38:47

We have. Yeah, this is it. And we've kind of lost that, haven't we?

And it's like, you know, we used to play British Bulldog, which was an amazing game, but it was just like, you know, a battle. Every. Every playtime was a big battle. But it was amazing because you learned about teamwork.

You learned about what it was like to, to fear for your life and run and. Yeah, and you learn to defend yourself. Like, in a lot of ways it was a. It did build huge resilience.

Howard Cooper: 00:39:13

But. But even as simple as, you know, look, I mean, you saw me when, when we've met, I did some magic for you.

I used to be a professional magician many, many years ago. And I was always interested in magic growing up as a kid.

And I remember, you know, it was the thing I used to spend my pocket money On I would save up and save up and save up. And eventually there was a one magic shop. It was mail order. And I would look in the catalog. I'd spend hours choosing what I wanted. I'd have to.

To save up. Finally, I'd send off the mail order, write a check, or my parents would write a check for me. Exactly.

And then I'd have to wait four days before it would get there. Then a week while they processed it, because it's five to seven days of processing, probably another four or five days for it to be sent back.

Three weeks of waiting for this thing that I would sit. And now kids, you know, you know, my kids get impatient if it doesn't arrive, is it not next day delivery?

Sue Davies: 00:40:03

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:40:04

You know, because goodness me, God forbid, we have to. To learn to wait for more than a second.

Sue Davies: 00:40:10

Yeah. Instant gratification. Everything and therefore no resilience. And so then as they, as they're growing up, there is just.

They don't understand how the world, I suppose. But the world has changed, doesn't it? And maybe it's just that, you know, I mean, I know I'm beginning to sometimes feel like a real dinosaur.

Howard Cooper: 00:40:28

Right. But, but, but, but, but me too. I mean, my son asked me the other day, daddy, what was it like when you were young? In the olden days?

To me, you know, But I think some things have changed. Some things are the same, which is our capacity to change is still both as quick and as slow as it always was.

And I think, ironically, the people that I find change the quickest are the ones that aren't trying to change the quickest. The ones that are okay with having some moments of not feeling less than perfect.

Sue Davies: 00:40:57

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:40:57

Because if you feel a bit anxious and you go, oh, God, it hasn't worked. Oh, no, I'm still doing it. You go into it more if you're like, okay, well, that's all right.

They tend to have much bigger transformations, quite much quicker.

Sue Davies: 00:41:08

Yeah. Because I think, you know, the world is changing. And I know, you know, just in the last. Well, in the last, say two years.

Two years ago, everything we did, we'd have to work really hard to.

If I was, if I was going to write something as an article, I'd have to sit, I'd have to go and find the information, go and research it, sit and write it all out, do lots and lots of. Of editing and making sure everything was perfect. And now I can pop onto a GPT, give it a basic fundamental of what the idea is.

I want to Write about it can come back and do all my research for me. It can even write the article for me, which I don't think is great, but. Yeah, but it can give you those, those. It can just. It does the phrase of.

It does the heavy lifting as I hear a lot. But it, it saves us so much effort. And I.

And I don't know if this is a good thing for humanity, an anxiety or not because then there's an anxiety of like. Do people know I've used Chat GPT?

Howard Cooper: 00:42:03

Yeah, well, I, I do think it's.

Sue Davies: 00:42:05

There is a downside. Yeah. There's a whole.

Howard Cooper: 00:42:08

I think it's going to rob us of. Of ability to think. If you look at, you know, I can't do mental arithmetic.

Sue Davies: 00:42:16

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:42:16

Rubbish at it because we have calculators. So my brain went, why do I need to do that? I have a terrible sense of direction.

And it's got worse since GPS has come out because now I don't need a sense of direction. It does it for me. And my concern, projecting ahead is, you know, when, when Chat GPT and AI can do all the thinking for us.

I don't need to do any myself anymore.

Sue Davies: 00:42:40

No, I think that's the scary. But then do you think that maybe allows the anxiety like and all of.

Because then you have more thoughts because you haven't got to think about the stuff that you need to be doing and the practicalities of getting from A to B or the practicalities of.

Of creating, I don't know, whatever piece of text or whatever it is that you're trying to do because you haven't got to think about it so much does that you've then got more space for all of these other thoughts to appear in your head.

Howard Cooper: 00:43:04

Perhaps. Perhaps. Yeah. It's interesting. I think there's, you know, it's a blessing and a curse. And I'm not saying I'm. I've been increasingly using AI.

You know, in fact, I'm not even here right now. I'm just saying. No, this is. I'm just an A. No, no, no, I am, I am here.

Sue Davies: 00:43:19

I saw one yesterday that I really. I fell for completely.

Howard Cooper: 00:43:23

Right.

Sue Davies: 00:43:23

And then I. And then it was a still of. On a real. And it was Elvis and it just caught my attention because it was saying.

It said something that caught my attention. So I clicked to play terrible clickbait person click to play it. And it wasn't Elvis.

It was a guy that had very similar hair, but he was making somewhat of a statement. He literally did that. Took his hand away and he was Elvis.

Howard Cooper: 00:43:46

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:43:47

And it was. And it's all AI and it's just like deep fake stuff. But it was, it's just I, I went from looking at that still there was no way.

He didn't have six fingers. It was literally his face that had been morphed. And it was, it was Elvis. It was. It's very, very weird.

Howard Cooper: 00:44:02

Well, it's. Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:44:03

And then there's another whole level of anxiety. If. Is what we're watching even real?

Howard Cooper: 00:44:07

Exactly. Yeah. You know, where possible, I think AI, you know, should be used, you know, and, and embraced. But let's not take it too far.

Let's not strip our way ourselves of humanity as well.

Sue Davies: 00:44:21

But we still need. Because I think it's nice to still have that human touch, isn't it? And to have.

I asked yesterday, I was trying to work out something around pricing and I needed to allow for a certain percentage. And it came back and I was.

And I, and I'd asked it to do whatever pricing and it then came back and I was like, actually, have you done that 30% thing I asked you to do? He's like, oh, no, I haven't. And it then rewrote the whole thing with. And it actually showed me all the mathematical formula it was doing. Right.

It's just, it's crazy and I do love it, but it does, it does take. It takes away a lot of stress because you just. Things are easier. But then. Yeah, I don't know, I think maybe there's just room for more, more thought.

And we all know, I think.

Howard Cooper: 00:45:01

And also, you know, it's getting its data from, you know, the hundreds and thousands of pieces of information people have already put up. But it means that you probably won't. It will be hard to find an outlier, something that does something extraordinary or outside the current thinking.

And if you really want to create something new or different or be a pioneer, it's probably. It might prompt some ideas, but it probably isn't going to be the thing. So it's, you know, and it's out.

Sue Davies: 00:45:27

Of date, isn't it? I mean, if you think, I mean, like the, the. Well, now I think it's chat GPT4, isn't it?

It's the news is the one that he's working on at the moment, but the one that was there before was two years out of date. So everything it's doing is not that current. But yes. Anyway, we just, I think we just need to be mindful, don't we, that the AI gets anxious.

Howard Cooper: 00:45:45

I had some interesting philosophical conversations with the art with to ask if it has anxiety chat. GPT did ask me answer in one thread that I did. It admitted that it lies. Really that it. It potentially lies and often tells mistruths and wow.

Sue Davies: 00:46:05

Which was deliberately or not?

Howard Cooper: 00:46:07

Well, no, I did back it into a corner, you know, where I, I sort of using my therapeutic frames got it to admit that it can't know anything for certain. Because it can't. No one can know anything for certain.

And even if it means well intended, it might be genuinely misinformed and therefore it has to acknowledge the possibility that it might be spreading mis untruths. You know, there was an interesting.

Sue Davies: 00:46:31

I don't know if you, you know, Mo Ga who was. He was like the chief AI guy at Google and he's got an amazing podcast.

But he, and I'm sure he probably does talk about this on his podcast, but I first came across him at a. He was a keynote speaker and he told this story. But he's also been on the Stephen Bartlett Diary of a CEO podcast talking about it.

And he was one of the biggest creators of, of of AI at Google back in the day. An amazing. He's a genius, absolute genius.

And, but he was saying that AI is now able to emote in many ways and the one emotion that it will struggle with because it's so nuanced is love.

All of the other ones, they reckon that very, very shortly it will be able to emote anger and sadness and all those things, but love is one of the only ones it won't be able to do it. We struggle with. It will take it longer to learn that which is really, I think he's really interesting.

Howard Cooper: 00:47:25

That is interesting. Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:47:27

Because there's an anxiety and I think maybe as well anxiety. It'd be interesting to.

I might go back and have a listen and see what he says about anxiety because I've got a different, a different, I've got a different framing since I listened to it first time and it'd be interesting.

Howard Cooper: 00:47:40

I might take that out. It's fascinating.

Sue Davies: 00:47:41

Yeah, it is a really, It's a really fascinating. It's about, it is about an hour, an hour and 40 minutes long. I think that podcast is brilliant though.

And just the, the, the walkthrough he does of his experience of AI and what he believes is going to be the future of AI is. And I think this year is the year it's all going to start changing.

He was saying, because they thought it was going to Be towards the end of this decade, but it's moved that extra. Extra. No, I can't say the word that quickly. Yeah, yeah, that, that it's going to be this year that everything changes. So we're seeing. Won't we?

But anyway, back to what we're here.

Howard Cooper: 00:48:16

Absolutely. Yes, indeed.

Sue Davies: 00:48:18

Sorry, going off on some tangent of.

Howard Cooper: 00:48:21

No, I love it, I love it.

Sue Davies: 00:48:22

I know, but I, I, it just fascinates me. And even though I am a bit of an old dinosaur, I do, I, I love, I really love how tech can, can just lift and change everything.

And I've always been, I was the first one in, like, where I used to work. I was the first one that brought in, like, a PC and I was the first one that had, like, whatever print. I was always, I always have been.

Tried to be on the cutting edge of it, but, yeah, I'm getting really cool. Yeah, yeah, I did. I had a. Oh, I won't even go there. It's boring stuff because it's all old office stuff. But I did, I was the first one.

Everyone else was on Amstrad and I bought a lot an IBM PC in. It's like, ooh. Oh, yeah, the joy of mail merge. I got so excited. So.

Howard Cooper: 00:49:03

Love it.

Sue Davies: 00:49:05

Anyway, yeah. Let's talk about the willingness ladder, because I've seen you, I've seen you. I don't even know what you could.

I've seen you do the willingness ladder. I've been on the training, I've been part of being in that zone and it is, it is a truly transformational, therapeutic tool.

Howard Cooper: 00:49:27

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:49:28

So, yeah. Can you explain a little bit about what hat.

Well, I don't know, but just tell us a little bit about the willingness ladder in whatever way you want to explain. Explain it and, and tell us how it came to be and so on.

Howard Cooper: 00:49:40

Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. Normally one that I, I get asked if I'm doing therapeutic trainings. I'm gonna, I want to frame this in a way that's going to be helpful.

I think the more we resist something, the more it persists. And that's often, you know, we've often heard that, you know, you know, the more you resist, the more it persists.

So that's why if someone comes and says, oh, Howard, I'm having terrible, intrusive thoughts about this, that or the other, you know, the more they try and get rid of it, the more it pops up, it becomes, don't think about a blue elephant. The more you say, don't Think about a blue elephant. The more it comes up, by the way.

Incidentally, this is why most diets fail, because people go around. It's all about restriction. And they go around saying to themselves all day, don't think about chocolate cake. Don't think about chocolate cake.

Don't eat the chocolate cake. Don't eat the chocolate cake. Don't imagine the chocolate cake.

And of course, lo and behold, they go and eat the chocolate cake because all they've been doing all day is picturing it, which literally creates the blueprint for the action. And it also implies, does it not, that the thought of chocolate cake contains some mandatory instruction that, like, oh, my God, there's some power.

And therefore, in order to not do it, I have to get rid of the thought. So now it keeps popping up and so on. So I've always been fascinated with that idea. But what if we could take the power out of thoughts?

What if you were able to have the thought chocolate cake, but just not have any physical response to it so that you could become willing to have it? Well, actually, if resistance leads to persistence, yeah. What would being willing to have it lead to?

Rather than fighting it, but it just takes the power away from it. You know, like. And it's a little bit like the riddle that my son gave me.

One day, he comes back from school and he goes, daddy, Daddy, I've got a riddle for you. I don't know why I did that voice. He doesn't even talk like that. But there you go. What's the riddle? And he went, here we go.

He says, imagine you're trapped in a room. It's burning down around you. There's no doors, there's no windows. How do you stay safe? And I was busy cooking the dinner at the time. I don't know.

George, what is it? You know, I'm already. I thought you talked about Fortnite for a second. But I said, no, no. What's the answer? He went, the answer is stop imagining.

And he was all, like, all smart with it. Oh, yeah. And I went, no, no, that's wrong. And he went, no, no, no, that's. That's the. That's the puzzle.

And I said to him, look, I'm gonna close my eyes now and imagine being in a room that's burning down around me with no doors and no windows, right? So I closed my eyes. You know, I really imagined it. And then I opened my eyes and I said, there you go, George. At what point was I in danger?

It was like, well, you weren't Right. I didn't have to stop imagining in it in order to stay safe, because I was. It's just the imagination. So even though I.

So me being willing to have it because I know I'm just making shit up.

Sue Davies: 00:52:33

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:52:34

Totally dis. Got rid of the feeling of anxiety around it.

Whereas if I went, oh, I mustn't think that thought because it's dangerous, I'd now spend my time trying to get rid of the thought. It's like the people who want to stop smoking and they tell themselves, I have to get rid of the craving.

Well, that's giving the craving a lot of power.

So really, from a therapeutic point of view, I developed a process, a set of six questions where you could gently guide people into a process where they really got this.

So that they could change the relationship with their thinking, so that they could be willing to have all the thoughts that they don't want to come up, they could be willing to have. And ironically, when you're willing to have them, they stop coming up as much.

Sue Davies: 00:53:14

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:53:15

You know, because it changes the whole dynamic. And that was. For me, there was the beauty of the willingness ladder. Instead of telling people to get rid of stuff, it was like dramatically putting.

Turning everything on its head.

Sue Davies: 00:53:25

Yeah. You know, and it isn't I thinking, it's just. And maybe even that you can encourage the thoughts because they don't mean anything.

And I know the things that I. When I. I know the first time I saw you do this at the. At event that I met you at, and. And Sally, that you did that too.

And I know the next day she had a thing with a horse, didn't she? She was. She's a dressage rider. She hadn't competed for years. And the next day she was terrified of it. Absolutely.

She was in such a state about this competition because she hadn't competed. And you did the willingness ladder with her. And literally the next day she went and got like a gold medal. And it was.

Howard Cooper: 00:53:59

It was amazing.

Sue Davies: 00:53:59

She was just so transformational. I think we were all, like those of us hadn't experienced what you do before, which is sad, kind of how. And you know. And you. What you.

You were on our kind of keynote stage for what, an hour, 45 minutes, something like that.

Howard Cooper: 00:54:14

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:54:15

And it was. It was brilliant. And I think that this, you know, the power of thought is so. It's just a really intense thing, isn't it?

Whether it's a positive thought or a negative thought. The power of thought is what makes us. Makes us do everything. And it's just whether or not you put that a negative spin to it.

Howard Cooper: 00:54:33

Yeah, I mean, I think a good way of explaining it is to, you know, look, so years ago, I used to work with Virgin Atlantic on their flying without vehicles. I used to share, spend two hours talking in front of a group full of phobic flyers, and then I get on a plane with them.

So I used to joke that I've got to be good at what I do because I don't want to be on a plane with 100 people who are freaking out. You know, it's that simple.

But because of that, I've had lots of people who are anxious flyers who come and see me, and they often all say the same thing. They go, howard, make me like all the people who are okay flying, who never have any negative thoughts about flying.

At which point I say, right, here's an experiment. And anyone who's listening, you go, go and do this yourselves. Find someone who's okay flying and say to them, this. You're okay flying.

Be honest, though, have you ever, and I mean ever had a negative thought about flying? Like, what if we crash? What if it was turbulent? And they'll all go, of course. And then you say, okay, cool.

What technique do you use in order not to freak out? And they all do this. They go, I don't know.

It never struck them that they had to get rid of the thought or they even had to do anything with it because they know it's just a thought. So there's no, like, I must get rid of it. There's just, oh, it's just a thought.

What happens is the thought pops up and then they just naturally move on to the next thought. They don't mark it out of significance.

And can you imagine if we had that relationship with cravings or what if thoughts that popped up, you know, about things, you know, then we'd be free. You know, we. We just. A thought would come, then it would go off.

Sue Davies: 00:56:09

Yeah. And I think if you. And if you're struggling with anxiety, the belief that that can happen probably feels quite a long way away, doesn't it, really?

And I think that's because I think you don't believe it can be as simple as not reacting to the thought.

Howard Cooper: 00:56:27

Well, normally it's because we're not given the right tools to use.

Sue Davies: 00:56:30

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:56:30

So what we do is we spend a long time doing the wrong things, and then because we spent a long time doing it, we really create a strong kind of, well, it definitely can't work and be Easy. Because it's never been easy before.

Sue Davies: 00:56:42

Yeah, but.

Howard Cooper: 00:56:43

But the present and the past does not equal the future. It's just, you know, it's a bit like trying to fix your.

Your computer with a rubber duck, you know, for your whole life, and then someone finally gives you a screwdriver.

Sue Davies: 00:56:57

Yeah, this.

Howard Cooper: 00:56:58

This won't work because I've been using a rubber duck for years. It. I mean, it's.

Sue Davies: 00:57:03

You know, is that the thing is, I think when you. And when you put it in those kind of. That kind of phrase in it, it does seem so obvious, doesn't it? Is that, you know, I'm gonna.

I'm just gonna sit here and just, like, you know, quietly rock and do some deep breathing and it's all going to be okay.

Howard Cooper: 00:57:19

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 00:57:20

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:57:22

But of course, if people have done that a lot, you know, and it's not that I'm like, sympathy. It really feels real. It really feels like you won't get through it. I'm in the process of writing a YouTube that.

I'm doing more of those at the moment. And I was thinking about the analogy that sometimes it feels like anxiety is a bit like driving in the fog.

If you're driven in the fog for 30 minutes, yes. You're trying to edge forward in your seat to get a better view, but you can't because it's just moving with you and you can't see through.

It's like this big wall of gray and there's nothing. But it does clear. But the fact that it's been there for 30 minutes and it's currently there now doesn't tell you anything about the future.

It doesn't tell you that it will last forever. It just means that your current experience is not great.

Sue Davies: 00:58:09

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:58:09

That's all. But the current and past experience doesn't equal the rest of your life.

Sue Davies: 00:58:14

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:58:14

You know, things in my experience are transient. Change is always happening.

Sue Davies: 00:58:19

Change is inevitable, isn't it? Yeah, it is. There is.

You know, even from when we started at the beginning of, like, the podcast, there's going to be so many things that have changed for us.

You know, like, I've had lots of noise going on, which wasn't intended, and, you know, and people that are listening, you know, they might have had their kids running and out of the room, and change is happening. You've got to adapt all the time to anything that's happening around you, because you can't. Yeah. You can't control everything.

Howard Cooper: 00:58:45

Yeah. The other thing that I think is fun is that people often, especially with anxiety go. I want to go back to how things used to be.

I wish I could go back to what, you know, simpler times or when, trust me, you don't. And one thing I always say, and I firmly believe this is anyone out there who's going, I want to go back to how things. How I used to be.

Especially if you're having a tough time, I would say you don't. And here's why. Because years ago when things were like they used to be, you still had all of these challenging times ahead.

Sue Davies: 00:59:18

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 00:59:19

You know, and if you're going through some challenging times, you might be almost through it. Don't go back.

Sue Davies: 00:59:24

No, I think, I think you need to take the step forward, the step forward without what the challenges are like.

And if, and if you are having anxiety and all of those thoughts and sensations that are causing you discomfort, you want to move forward without them and leave, don't leave those behind. You don't want to go take them into the next day or the next week or the next month.

Howard Cooper: 00:59:45

Absolutely. You know, it was tough enough the first time. Don't go, don't go back and have to relive it. You know, just go forward, really don't.

And become better armed.

Sue Davies: 00:59:54

Yeah. So what.

So with that in mind, we do as an industry and especially now, we've got so many people that work from home, businesses that are mobile, that and they.

With all the cost of living, everything that's going on with the world, people are struggling so they tend to work longer hours, which means their work life balance, it gets really, really imbalanced and that, that can cause them a lot of problems.

So what kind of advice would you have to sort of like manage that personal struggles whilst trying, you know, you've got all of that stuff going on, but you also want to have like your successful, fulfilling career that's going to bring you loads of money and make your life better. And you're, and you're. Because it's just at odds with each other, isn't it?

Is that you, you want to have this perfect home life that the business life provides for, but in actual fact doesn't really happen for most people all of the time. And I think that you, there's, I think with all the social media and all that stuff, you think all these other people are having that.

So you get like envy and jealousy and why aren't I getting that imposter syndrome? There's just so much, isn't there, that that can hook in.

Howard Cooper: 01:01:04

It really is. I think I've Got one very, very simple piece of advice, which is to stop masturbating. I. I need to be very careful. Sorry.

Sue Davies: 01:01:16

Yes. Be very careful how you say that, Howard.

Howard Cooper: 01:01:18

Yes. Because I don't want anyone to misunderstand what I said. We're talking about must abating.

Sue Davies: 01:01:24

Yes.

Howard Cooper: 01:01:24

Must, musts, shoulds, have to's. It's not my phrase. It was Dr. Albert Ellis from Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy who talked about must abation, not the other thing.

That's not what this podcast is about, as far as I understand.

Sue Davies: 01:01:37

Don't discuss that. We don't discuss that.

Howard Cooper: 01:01:39

Not appropriate. No. But what we're talking about is the must, the shoulds, the have to's, or the must nots.

And look, a really simple thing here is if I ask everyone right now who's listening, and you included, sue, to, to close your eyes and say to yourself, by the way, if you're driving, listening to this, don't close your eyes.

Sue Davies: 01:01:55

Yeah, don't do that if you're driving.

Howard Cooper: 01:01:57

You know, crike it.

Sue Davies: 01:01:58

Or if you're cutting someone. Hair. Someone's hair.

Howard Cooper: 01:02:00

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, don't do that. In fact, don't listen to a podcast while you're cutting someone's hair. Maybe you can, I don't know, in the background, gently.

Sue Davies: 01:02:07

Not maybe not the same.

Howard Cooper: 01:02:09

Okay, fine. All right, good. We've cleared all that up, right?

Sue Davies: 01:02:12

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:02:12

So that all aside.

Sue Davies: 01:02:14

Yeah, yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:02:15

Close your eyes, if appropriate to do so, and you're not operating heavy machinery, and say to yourself in your head with real intent, I must relax right now. I have to relax immediately. And just notice, as you demand that of yourself, how it feels. I must relax.

Sue Davies: 01:02:31

I could feel my muscles kind of just going, what do you mean?

Howard Cooper: 01:02:33

Right, Exactly. It's like they rebel. It's like, how dare you?

Sue Davies: 01:02:36

Yeah, they do. They do.

Howard Cooper: 01:02:38

Whereas if you change the words in your mind to I'd like to relax, notice the difference, and that the chances is that probably it's going to feel a little bit more easy to relax than the demanding that you have to.

Sue Davies: 01:02:52

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:02:53

And I think a lot of people do this in life. What they do is they, you know, especially if there's a lot of pressure and they. They've got a work life balance.

There's this keeping up with the Joneses. I have to do this perfectly. I have to post every day. I must be amazing at my job. I must have a work life balance.

I must go home with every single thing that I need to get done, done and completed off my list. I must Respond to every email. If someone's emailed and I have an email back that day, what will they think about me?

Other people must think I'm responsive. And people can get so caught up in all of these musts that they forget they're not universal rules, they're just strong preferences.

And I think if you can begin to move away from in your mind the absolutistic thinking of I have to do these things. You don't have to. You'd like to. You have a preference to.

You can actually alleviate a lot of the anxiety around it and a lot of the stress that you find yourself under under by challenging these musts and these tendencies. But I think a lot of work life balance issues doesn't come from the fact that we're doing too much or that we're taking on.

It comes from doing so much and not giving ourselves permission to be less than perfect.

Sue Davies: 01:04:10

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:04:11

Just to be accepting of. Yeah. I can't do it all. You know, I have a list I've got. You should see my overdue tasks list, Sue. Honestly, it's huge.

And I have allocated time where I do different tasks. You know, I have certain times in my diary I actually allocate it. It's called Rubber Duck time. Genuinely my diary.

I have rubber duck time and that is time that I spend on keeping the business afloat. But that, that's why I call it Rubber Duck time.

It's all about keeping the business afloat and I allocate a certain amount number of hours to do that. And that's when I do the emails and stuff, which means there's not always time to do everything that I need to do. But here's the thing.

If I don't stick to those time frames, I will end up spending all my time doing only that and no other aspect of my business and my life will move forwards. So I'm going to have to accept the fact that there's only one of me.

I might piss off a lot of people who email me and I don't get back to them for maybe a day or two longer than might have been appropriate.

But I do that for my own sanity and for my mental health and mental well being because I can't help people in the way that I do if I'm operating from a place of too much stress overwhelm intention either.

Sue Davies: 01:05:19

Yeah.

And I think it's a massive thing is that I think we feel massively responsible to people around us and whether it's our clients, our family and ultimately we do have Our, you know, that we have our first responsibility to ourselves.

And I think we all, you know, there's a whole shoulda, coulda, woulda kind of mentality that, you know, we really, I mean, I know for me, I've had a lot of times when it's been I must do this, I must do that. And the more you get into that mindset, the less you actually tend to get done. I feel right, because you just leads to overwhelming.

You're just, you're just chastising yourself most of the time more than anything and just driving all those negative thoughts about how, how useless you are and how you're not doing anything properly and oh, you're going to let all these people down.

And in actual fact, if know if you're clear about, you know, with people that you're working with, for example, and your clients, if you, if you've got clear boundaries in place that can really help them understand that actually sometimes I'm not going to come back to you in five minutes time just because you message me. And we do experience that a huge amount with clients demanding appointments. You know, I have to say I don't have this any longer.

But I mean, I know when I used to have my salon many years ago and before I had, I was a home seller for a long time and it would, I'd have people messaging me at 5 o'clock in the morning because they just got up and were thinking about it or they'd message me at midnight because they were just going to bed and thinking about it. And it's like. And the, the onus on you to think I must respond to them immediately. Well, actually, no, you don't have to.

Howard Cooper: 01:06:50

No, there's a lovely quote I always remember someone told me and it's always stuck with me, which is your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency for me.

Sue Davies: 01:07:00

Oh absolutely. I love that, you know, and I.

Howard Cooper: 01:07:04

Often have that in my, in my head, you know, when, I mean I got a call from someone who said, and I'll always do what I can to help within reason. But someone, you know, it was so funny. They rang me and they were really calm as well on the phone. They went, oh, hello Howard, I got you.

I've understand you could help with a fear of flying. I said, oh yes, I do a lot of work with that. Have you got a flight anywhere soon? Oh yes, in half an hour. I'm in the boarding lounge.

I'm like, can you fit me in now?

Well, and again I just had this little voice in My head that went like, I'd really like to help, but I had someone else I was about to say, and unfortunately, you know, your lack of planning. I didn't say this, but I thought it.

Sue Davies: 01:07:36

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:07:36

Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency for me. You know, and I think it's okay to set boundaries like that.

Sue Davies: 01:07:43

Yeah. And I think we do need to do it more as, like, humans, don't we?

Because I think we've, like when you got, you know, going back to what you were saying about, you know, your son expecting next day to live and everything, and I think as a. As humanity and in the first world, we do expect everything now and.

And we have no resilience to deal with it when someone doesn't listen to us immediately. It's a really difficult thing for us to manage.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:07

Yeah, absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:08:08

We have to kind of get round. Get round that.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:12

I totally agree.

Sue Davies: 01:08:13

Yeah. So if.

What for you would you say, like, for people that want to build a stronger, more resilient mind and just kind of quiet and that negative noise, what do you think is like, so we need to stop the musts. We need to.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:28

Don't have to.

Sue Davies: 01:08:30

We don't have to. Don't have to stop.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:32

No, we mustn't have a must about stopping the musts. We must go, I must stop the must.

Sue Davies: 01:08:36

Oh, no. I'd like to see how that's.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:39

See how it sneak. Sneaks up on us.

Sue Davies: 01:08:41

I'm going down the spiral.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:42

Exactly. No, but seriously, some people go, I must stop musting. It's like. No, no, no, no.

Sue Davies: 01:08:49

We'd like.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:50

You'd like to. You'd like to. It would be. Might be helpful to.

Sue Davies: 01:08:53

I'd like to.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:54

But again, if we have these, like, I must stop it. It's like more tension in the body.

Sue Davies: 01:08:59

So.

Howard Cooper: 01:08:59

Yes, that's definitely one thing, though. Yeah. Sorry, I just couldn't help but notice.

Sue Davies: 01:09:04

So we. So we. We need to. We need to. We need to want to do things and I'd like to do that.

I've lost what we were talking about earlier now you were kind of giving.

Howard Cooper: 01:09:16

Was like a recap of, like. It was like a recap of, you know, things that people could do. So one is to sort of help people see through the. The musts. Yeah.

What one is, I think, to stop with the net. To help with the negative thinking. Just add in that little phrase. You know, I'm just experiencing the thought.

Sue Davies: 01:09:34

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:09:35

Because it helps detach from that.

Sue Davies: 01:09:38

Yes. And. And it is. And they're just thoughts, aren't they.

Howard Cooper: 01:09:43

They are.

And I think the other, the other thing, if we're looking at it, other stuff that we've covered today is that idea that sensations by themselves don't really mean anything. It's just. They're just sensations. It's what we attach to it.

Sue Davies: 01:09:56

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:09:57

You know, that's the problem. And if we could just strip it back to, oh, it just means my heart's racing.

I'd have to get rid of that, you know, or you can interpret it a different way.

Sue Davies: 01:10:06

Yeah, it could be that. Yeah, you just. But it is, I think it is. Is that it's just try and switch that the thought, isn't it? And.

Or just it switch the thought attached to the sensation. Allow that thought to not be linked to it.

Howard Cooper: 01:10:20

Absolutely. Yeah.

Sue Davies: 01:10:22

So for sure, the one thing that everybody's doing on this season for me is, is to share with me one of your favorite quotes and that you've given me. If you fight with reality, you'll lose, but only 100% of the time. So how come that's a, A, A thing for you? What is it you like about that?

Howard Cooper: 01:10:46

I think it's the undeniable truth. If you argue with reality, you'll lose, but only 100% of the time. Put it this way.

Have you ever had the experience where you're running, you're walking along, you don't have an umbrella with you, and it starts raining and the rain's coming down and it just, it's just.

And you're running to try and get out of it, but you get to the point where you are so soaked and the rain gets so heavy, you just get drenched and there's no escape. And at that moment, there's this moment where you kind of.

Often people describe this moment where you kind of just stop running and you kind of go and you just kind of accept. And you, you, you deal with the reality of being wet.

Sue Davies: 01:11:28

Yeah. There's nothing else you can do.

Howard Cooper: 01:11:31

And it's really funny because if you ask people how do you feel at that moment? Most people will say some version of. Well, actually kind of feels quite fun. It feels freeing, psychologically liberating.

Sue Davies: 01:11:42

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:11:42

And then when you see people still running by, trying to get out of the rain, don't you have this sense of, like, how little do they know? They can't escape this? This is the reality.

The reality of it is there are some times in life where the rain is happening, you know, and when that happens, we can either go, it's not raining. I should have my umbrella I do have my umbrella, but that just.

Sue Davies: 01:12:03

I must have packed it.

Howard Cooper: 01:12:05

Yes, exactly. You end up just having this huge amount of tension in the body and it doesn't help. Or we can go. You know what the reality of it is?

I am getting worse wet, and it is raining. And there is a psychological freedom. And that's why they say if you argue with reality, you'll lose.

But only 100% of the time, if it's happening, it is happening.

Sue Davies: 01:12:26

And, you know, and I think I started running last summer, and I don't know what quite what came over me, but I. I started running and I am now apparently a runner. But there's a joy to being wet and running in that rain.

And I always thought, oh, no, I'm never going to run in rain. But you know, that, that inevitability of once you're wet, you're wet, it's actually, it kind of. It's actually much more fun.

And it's, it is just accepting reality. It is much, much nicer place to be. Because all the time you're thinking, you can see the gray cloud ahead of you.

You're thinking, please don't start, please don't start, please don't start. And the first probably two months I was running was, was in the summer, so I didn't really have to contend with that much.

And as I went into sort of September and you start to get more possibilities, I was dreading it. But that first time I got drowned was like the most freeing thing ever.

Howard Cooper: 01:13:21

Yeah. Well, look, I don't work with people with relationships. I don't do, like, couples counseling or anything.

But if anyone asks me, you know, have you got any advice in terms of relationships? Here's my ultimate, my number one piece of advice. So having a good relationship. You ready?

Sue Davies: 01:13:32

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:13:32

If you want to have a good relationship, start by having a relationship with the person you're with. And people go, what do you mean? Like, I don't. Well, because here's what people do.

Most people aren't in a relationship with the person they're with, what they're in a relationship with is the imagined version of the person they want them to be.

Sue Davies: 01:13:51

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:13:52

And then every time that the real person doesn't match up to their imagined version of an expectations of how they want this person to be, they feel a sense of irritation and frustration and resentment. Why aren't you like. Well, they haven't changed. They've always been like that.

Sue Davies: 01:14:07

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:14:08

So if you really want to have a good relationship, at least start by being In a relationship with the person that is and not the person that you imagine them to be.

Sue Davies: 01:14:14

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:14:15

And that's why if you argue with reality, you'll lose, but only 100 of the time, you know.

Sue Davies: 01:14:20

Yeah. Completely.

And, you know, and there's something that I wanted that is now in my head about one of the things we did on the, on our training that you did have your whiteboard for, which we were talking about this before when we decided to not do the whiteboard because audio whiteboards aren't going to work.

But, but this is something people can use their imagination for is to, like, when you have that, imagine you drew like the, like, you know, there's, there's you and it's a thought cloud.

And your worst thing that's in the thought cloud of, you know, say you're going to be speaking on stage so you can see yourself on stage, and then you're thinking, oh, my goodness, what are those people going to think? And you ended up like, we ended up with, like, thought clouds coming off of thought clouds coming off of thought clouds.

But it's all, it's all imaginary. None of it is real.

Howard Cooper: 01:15:09

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:15:10

And I, I just wanted to share because I, I, Yeah, well, maybe I.

Howard Cooper: 01:15:14

Love that that's helpful for you, though. I love that that stuck out for you because you're right.

Often we worry about what people think of us, but in order for us to worry what people think of us, what we have to be doing is we have to imagine other people, which is just our thoughts, and then we have to imagine that they're thinking thoughts about us. Yeah. And it's like we're not even the thought of ourselves in our own head.

How can we possibly be the thought of ourselves and the imaginary person's thought of, like, it just. The whole thing becomes so laughable. It blows it out.

Sue Davies: 01:15:40

It does. And I think for me, that was what. I mean, obviously the willingness ladder was a big takeaway.

But I think just that little element of like, of how ridiculous our minds become and the avenues it takes us down, once we start the thought of the what if and then what when that other person's doing the what if? In that, how's that person in our head doing their own what if? Or judging us? How are they there?

Only because we allow them to be there and we put them there through our imagination, which is not right.

Howard Cooper: 01:16:12

Exactly. And I just think it's hilarious when you begin to see that the fallacy of the illusions that we fall for, it does become kind of fun and Funny.

And, you know, and I think, you know, laughter is a much better thing than anxiety. You know, it's like the. Ah, I fell for that. Huh? How funny.

Sue Davies: 01:16:29

Yeah.

Because if nothing else, I mean, I really hope, if anybody is struggling with anxiety at the moment, that today's podcast has kind of given you a slightly different view of why you may be feeling like that and those sensations and thoughts that join in together to make you have that intensity of anxiety that you're feeling, but just to have a slightly different. Yeah. Slightly more maverick view maybe of what an. Of what you're going to get as anxiety from your gp.

Howard Cooper: 01:16:59

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, for me, the goal is if. If people's.

If they just sort of like, if it's just open the door a little bit to the possibility that, ah, there's some different things out there that can help. That isn't just. And that also, if you're doing stuff like take deep breaths, positive thinking, instruction, it's not working. It is not you.

It's the tools that don't work. It's not you.

Sue Davies: 01:17:17

Yeah, it isn't. And I think there's just, you know, there's so many amazing people out there that can help, and Howard being one of them. Obviously, I am.

I am trained now in doing Howard things and in doing control system as well. So there's lots of people out there that do things slightly differently and this.

And I love the fact that what you do and what Tim Box has taught me to do with control is just. It's so quick and. It is. Yeah. And there's no need for sort of like laying on a couch and, you know, sharing your life history with someone.

You don't have to do that. And it can literally just be a switch being turned off. It's. It can be that simple.

Howard Cooper: 01:17:53

Can really can be. And, you know, just the idea that things can change and that there's hope, I think is the.

Is the biggest piece, you know, to have and that people don't have to struggle with this stuff.

Sue Davies: 01:18:04

Yeah. And change doesn't have to be. Change doesn't have to be something that's negative. Change can be super positive, too.

Howard Cooper: 01:18:11

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, and we'd have to stay, you know, and the uncomfortable feelings are also okay.

Sue Davies: 01:18:17

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:18:18

We can embrace normal, normal integrated feelings, you know.

Sue Davies: 01:18:21

Yeah. And it works because it'll pass, won't it?

Howard Cooper: 01:18:24

Yeah, everything passes.

Sue Davies: 01:18:26

Everything passes.

Howard Cooper: 01:18:27

There's the. The classic, this too shall pass.

Sue Davies: 01:18:30

Yes, absolutely.

Howard Cooper: 01:18:31

You know, I think it's true, you know, so. Yeah. You know, I've absolutely loved this.

Sue Davies: 01:18:38

You know, I have, I've really enjoyed today because it's the first time I've done anything. It's like not really kind of industry related and, and it's. It's nice to kind of get a different conversation and it's.

So now I think because it's world. I'm sort of starting to take myself into a little bit more as well. Is.

It's just, it's just good to kind of have some, some different thought out there and to help people with the things that are kind of impacting them on a daily basis that I know so many of my peers and the people that are sort of like coming up through the ranks behind me are struggling with just to sort of give them like a bit of a. Like there's some, there's some. There's a way out there that you can be helped and there's a way out there that. Yeah. Does.

Doesn't involve lying in a dark room taking deep breaths and hoping it's all going to go away.

Howard Cooper: 01:19:22

No. Or, or trawling week in week and out through, you know, your past and trying to dredge up stuff.

Sue Davies: 01:19:28

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:19:28

You know, that actually wasn't even in your attention until the therapist made you.

Sue Davies: 01:19:32

Go back there because. And actually, sorry, I'm continuing the conversation on.

The thing when you say about the dog is like, you know, I had an experience and I think, I don't know if, if you. I think it might be one of the breakout rooms. I was talking about it but when I was a very small child before I.

I have no conscious memory of it whatsoever. Have a terrible fear of Dobermans because my uncle's guard dog, Prince, I mean he was a beaut.

I can, I can remember the dog and he was a beautiful dog, beautiful black and tanned Doberman. But I had a particular hat on my head when I was about 2 years old and he took it off my head.

But due to the learned stories of it and the fear that my mum experienced because.

Howard Cooper: 01:20:13

Right.

Sue Davies: 01:20:13

And I can feel it now even talking about it. It's ridiculous.

The fear that she felt of what that because it was a guy, it was a trained guard dog, so it's vicious and it's going to attack me and all that kind of stuff. Her fear transferred onto me and I've heard that story I don't even know how many times through my life and I don't even remember it.

And obviously I'm there. You know, we know that there'll be a Subconscious memory somewhere that got put down and I can't recall it.

I can't see it other than the story that I've been told. And I know I can remember the hacks.

I've seen photos of it and, and I kind of have some understanding of what would have happened, but I don't remember it.

Howard Cooper: 01:20:51

No.

Sue Davies: 01:20:51

And yet put a Doberman. Any like a photograph of one, one walking down the street, you know, it's. I have to say, because we did do it on my willingness train.

I haven't come across one since, so I haven't had to, I haven't actually had to go through that experience. I'm waiting for that experience, but I can still kind of. I can feel what that did to my mum because it didn't do it to me.

It probably made me jump at the time.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:15

Well, well, I would argue, I would argue that you, you can't feel what it did to your mum.

Sue Davies: 01:21:22

Yeah. But I suppose it's because of what.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:24

You imagine it did to your mom.

Sue Davies: 01:21:26

Yeah.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:26

It's not your mom.

Sue Davies: 01:21:27

I'm gonna go deep now.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:29

It's not your mom and it's not even, you know, it's not what she felt. It's what you've just interpreted as my mum must have felt this.

Sue Davies: 01:21:36

Yeah, absolutely.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:37

You know, and none of it's to do with Doberman. Just, just a quick question after. The dog must have done this to you. Was there a, A, a lot of crying at your funeral?

Sue Davies: 01:21:49

I don't know. I wasn't there.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:52

No, no, you didn't die. You didn't die.

Sue Davies: 01:21:54

I didn't die. I didn't.

Howard Cooper: 01:21:56

Okay.

Sue Davies: 01:21:56

All right, all right. You know, but now having gone through the learning I've gone for over the last sort of year, I now I'm just, I have just.

Why is that still affecting me? Because I don't remember it unless I've got a subconscious something that's registered that I don't, I don't know about.

And all I can have is like the experience of hearing that being spoken about because that's the only experience I've got of it yet that triggers a reaction that I am absolutely. I have been terrified of Dobermans. Hopefully when I see one next time. The willingness. Nad has done his job.

Howard Cooper: 01:22:29

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:22:30

But it, but it has for years. To the point I'd be like.

My sister's partner had one briefly, and he came into her life and had this awful big Doberman who actually had really bad legs and couldn't really move that easily. But it was still, that whole.

That thought of what it could do to me and I was literally on the back of the sofa having a panic attack while everyone else laughed at me.

Howard Cooper: 01:22:54

Oh, just.

Sue Davies: 01:22:55

I know, so tragic. They were horrible to me.

Howard Cooper: 01:23:01

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 01:23:01

But it's a weird thing, isn't it, because through no memory of the lived experience, I have that reaction.

Howard Cooper: 01:23:08

Right.

Sue Davies: 01:23:08

Or had that reaction.

Howard Cooper: 01:23:10

And that was going on for you regardless of the fact that Doberman was not doing anything.

Sue Davies: 01:23:15

No, it only actually happened the door. Even knowing it was in the house was enough.

Howard Cooper: 01:23:22

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 01:23:22

Which is ridiculous. It is madness. Absolute madness. But that's how phobia works, isn't it? It's just, it's a overreaction of.

Howard Cooper: 01:23:30

Yeah. Knee jerk response to a learnt. You know, but, but when you begin to kind of unpick that a little bit, the whole thing kind of dissolves.

Sue Davies: 01:23:39

We could just sit and do a host therapy session here.

Howard Cooper: 01:23:41

Oh, we could, we could. Yeah. And I'm not, I'm like, it's like a Rubik's cube. If I see an undone Rubik's Cube, I have to pick, pick it up and complete it.

It's like at the moment I'm like, oh, okay, come on. But yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna refrain. Refrain from.

Sue Davies: 01:23:54

Don't do that. Because otherwise it just could. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, I just want to thank you. Just if. Where can people find out how to connect with you?

Obviously they might see you on Morning Live.

Howard Cooper: 01:24:05

Yes. Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. So look, I have a website. Rapid change works.

I had someone yesterday that said to me, howard, you're really not hard to find. I just googled Howard Cooper and like, yeah, you're all over the shop. But some good places are Tick tock, Instagram, anxiety beating hacks.

But also YouTube. I have a growing YouTube following and I make regular content. Anxiety beating content.

So, yeah, feel free to, to join, check it out and join the community.

Sue Davies: 01:24:31

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for coming on and, and we'll. I'm going to hit the stop button and then we can have a chat afterwards. But thank you so much.

I really hope that, that everyone listening today has got a lot of value out of what Howard shared. I know that being in his company is. Yeah.

The couple of times I've been in your company has always brought a smile to my face and, and a lot of knowledge to my mind.

Howard Cooper: 01:24:54

Oh, thank you, thank you. I've loved being here. Thank you.

Sue Davies: 01:24:57

Yeah, okay. But thank you very much. So I hope that you got some value out of that episode. And I love Howard.

I say when I met him at this event last year, he was just, he's just like a breath of fresh air and he has opened my eyes to. It's just, I think he's just, he's like, he's a little bit out there. He thinks the things in a different way, which I think is always refreshing.

So I hope that like a little summary at the end has just kind of. Yeah. Just helped some of that stuff to, to get set into your mind about the musts and the. Yeah.

You're just experiencing a thought, you know, take some of this stuff away and if you are feeling anxious, then you know there are other ways of dealing with it that can be rapid and can be long term and permanent. So do have a think about getting in touch with Howard or you can reach out to me and I can help with anxiety and stuff as well now. So.

Yeah, anyway, I do think that's that and I know I've just, I've had a lovely time chatting with Howard. He's always just a delight to be around and, and do try and pop over to the, the YouTube channel because he's great to watch as well.

And although obviously we haven't been. He hasn't done any of his magic today, which is a shame because it doesn't translate to the audio.

But maybe at some point you can get to see how I do some magic. But do catch up with him on his YouTube channel. And yeah, he's actually had, he had a podcast as well quite a long time ago.

We were talking about it earlier and his podcast, he hasn't recorded for about six years, but it's still there. So you can go and listen to his podcast too.

Yeah, but just enter, enter his world because he's a, he's a great, great chap and, and I really, really think that he's got a lot to offer. Anyway, that's it for me for this week, so thank you very much and I will see you on the next one. Bye for now.

Howard Cooper: 01:26:58

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Sue Davies: 01:27:53

Thank you for listening to inspiring salon professionals.

If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do subscribe, leave a review and don't forget, share with your fellow industry professionals and other business owners that you think may enjoy the show. Links and further information can be found on the Show Notes or on my website, www.Sum.

all links and further information can be found in the Show Notes and there's also now the option to support the podcast through Buy Me a Coffee. The links for that you can find in the Show Notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.