Unlocking Success: Helen Ward on Elevating Salon Businesses with The Hair and Beauty Directory

Sue Davies: 00:00:02

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Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals, the podcast that allows every therapist, now tech and stylist, to level up, build their career and reach for their dreams.

Each episode we'll be looking at a different area of the industry and along the way I'll be chatting with salon owners, industry leaders and experts who will be sharing their stories on how they achieved their goals, made their successes, all to inspire you in your business and career. I'm Sue Davies, your host, award winning salon owner and industry professional. Welcome to to Inspiring Salon Professionals.

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Inspiring Salon Professionals.

I am thrilled to be welcoming my friend Helen walled onto the show today and I've known, I've known Helen actually for a surprisingly short amount of my career.

It's probably only been for the last couple of years that we've been acquaintances, but she is a true force to be reckoned with in the hair and beauty industry and she is CEO and the creator of, of the Hair and Beauty Directory which I hope that many of you are aware of already and if you're not, go and check it out. And she's also the owner of award winning the Sirens Hair and Beauty in Durham, which also has its own training school.

She has got a career that spans around about three decades. She's been around a while, but that means that she has a wealth of knowledge and experience that she's going to be sharing with us today.

She is multi qualified across many, many disciplines including skincare, lashes, therapies, and also has an awful lot of knowledge around salon policies and business growth and all that kind of stuff too, because she's been running her business for a very long time. She is passionate about raising standards in the industry and also creating positivity and safe spaces within the salon sector.

Helen and I had the pleasure of working together last year and a little bit the year before in the buildup to the small business hub that we ran together at Professional Beauty show last March. And we both share a deep commitment to education and supporting salon professionals is kind of what we're about.

It's our, our core values, our values align, which is why we worked so well together and we had such a fab time doing that.

Beyond her business endeavors, if you are on Helen's social media, on her personal social media, you will see her regularly with her wonderful dogs doing flyball and she has four very, very gorgeous dogs that are very precious to her and she's actually a national champion for flyball with her team, the Raptors. Helen's dedication to staying ahead of Industry trends is inspiring and she attends so many international events. I'm so jealous.

I always see her tripping around the world doing all this stuff and I'm like, how do I not get to do that? But she completes many courses every year and just is constantly upgrading her knowledge always.

And she also ensures that her team doing this in her salon so that her salon operates at the highest of standards and in current trends and treatments. So today Helen's coming to talk to me about the different layers that are on the Hair and Beauty Directory. It is the biggest directory of its kind.

I don't think there is anything of its kind on the Internet. It is very, very broad in what it does.

We will and we will discuss that within the episode and we will also discuss some of the challenges and opportunities that come through into the salon industry currently.

There's so many things happening and yeah, we're gonna have a bit of a chat and you'll notice with this, this season of the podcast, there's a lot of long episodes and it's because a lot of the people that are coming on are people I have lots of long conversations with. And we know how valuable some of those conversations are.

So they this season is kind of going to be sprinkled with some shorter episodes, but there are going to be these like long form episodes which you can dip in and out of and I hope bring you great value as you listen to us chatting about subjects that we are passionate about and that we love and that we know many others are passionate about and love too. So that's the reason for some of the really long form episodes that are going on.

But anyway, for now I am going to go over and welcome Helen and I will see you on the other side.

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If you're ready to simplify your business and get your time back, check out Jenna today, find the link in the show notes and see how Jenna can transform the way you work. Hello and welcome. Helen Wald. So good to have you on the podcast.

We have Been trying to arrange this for so long and your diary and my diary and everything we're doing just keeps making it incompatible.

een in the industry since the: 1990

Helen Ward: 00:05:36

All right, don't make it sound too.

Sue Davies: 00:05:37

both still very young, so the: 1990

Helen Ward: 00:05:48

Corvid cancels quite a bit of time out. So it's actually not that long.

Sue Davies: 00:05:52

No, it's not. Do you know what, though? Saying that, Isn't it weird? It's like 20. It's 20 years ago. It's five years ago.

Helen Ward: 00:05:58

Five years. So take five years off.

Sue Davies: 00:06:00

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. It's just mad. I can't believe that Covid was five years ago. Anyway, we're not here to talk about COVID particularly. We will.

We will end up dipping into it slightly because of where I know the Hair and Beauty Directory came from. But. But firstly, what made you. Because you have been a career professional, haven't you? So what.

What was it about this industry that attracted you and made you want to be part of it? Because that's going to be.

Helen Ward: 00:06:27

Honestly, I can't tell you your values.

Sue Davies: 00:06:29

Of what I made that decision.

Helen Ward: 00:06:31

I was probably a drunk 16 year old. So I. I can't tell you the actual reason. I had a couple of subjects that I narrowed it down to and surprisingly for anybody who knows me now, one.

One of my biggest ones was childcare. That was what I was going to originally go into, which is really not the person I am now.

Sue Davies: 00:06:46

Weirdly, I was looking at. I was looking at the NNEB and being a nanny.

Helen Ward: 00:06:51

Oh, really?

Sue Davies: 00:06:52

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:06:53

Now, oddly, my actual original aim was to be a editor, magazine editor. I wanted to work on beauty magazines and become an editor. And weirdly, we've gone completely full circle in what I'm doing now.

But that was my original intention. But I didn't really. I was 16. I didn't really have a. A goal in mind and then I've just stuck it out.

Sue Davies: 00:07:12

Wow. But you have done an awful lot, haven't you, in your career? And I mean, I know you as a salon owner, as a lash specialist, as a com.

Like, I know you competed. You've done so many different things and we will kind of touch on that as we. As we go through the. The episode. But firstly, I kind of.

Because so much of what you've done has led you to where you are now and all of the networks that you've built up and all of that stuff has led you to create the Hair and Beauty Directory, which is really what we are here to talk about today. Because it is such an amazing website. It's not even a website, is. It is a platform.

Helen Ward: 00:07:47

Let's get this. I call it platform now because it really isn't.

Sue Davies: 00:07:50

And there's a.

Helen Ward: 00:07:51

Just as.

Sue Davies: 00:07:52

There's a big difference, isn't there, between a website and a platform?

Helen Ward: 00:07:56

Yeah, yeah. We accidentally became a platform.

Sue Davies: 00:08:00

Yeah. This is it though, isn't it? But it's. I mean, I know from sort of the stuff I was doing, because we had.

Until I kind of shelved Nabuno last year, we were on a very similar kind of trajectory. So what made you. What was it that kind of was the tripwire to you starting the Hair and Beauty Directory? Where did that thought come from?

Helen Ward: 00:08:19

So, like, I think previously, I think it's been accidental. I would like to say I had this grand plan throughout my career. I'm going to do this, this and this.

But everything I've done has kind of been an accidental process and I've just gone down a rabbit hole. But the actual Hair and Beauty was. The idea came from all the conversations during the pandemic.

I accidentally again became somebody who talked a lot of what a lot of people were thinking during the pandemic. And it became very evident that there was a massive lack in standards and that it wasn't just my thoughts that, you know, there was.

There's such a saturation now in the industry on every level. And although I think there's enough work for everybody, that saturation is always not a positive thing.

And it became very evident that there was a big lack in standards train accreditation companies, where there's no control over accreditation companies, teaching or anything like that.

So I started to talk about this idea of having a very transparent space that clients could find salons where they could see insurance certificates, qualifications and education. And then it kind of snowballed from that. That's how it started out. It was only ever meant to be a salon directory to find professionals.

And then I was like, but I've got this idea. And I've got that idea. Can we add this? And now we've got this.

Sue Davies: 00:09:32

Yeah, whole platform hellenized.

Helen Ward: 00:09:35

Yeah. Yeah. When? Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:09:39

And. But it's one of the things that I I love working. When we were doing our work together last year or the year before last, even when it started.

But is that. And we're both, we're both kind of prone to this kind of like pinging.

Pinging of our brains of like all the things we can do, all the knowledge we have, all the things we want to share. And I think the Hair and Beauty Directory is kind of the culmination of like, of.

And everything, everything you stand for and everything you want to help people with is on their own. Beauty Directory.

Helen Ward: 00:10:06

Yeah, I basically created a platform that I wanted.

Sue Davies: 00:10:09

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:10:10

So as you know, I'm a little bit uncontrollable. So once I've gone down, I wouldn't say that I kind of lose. Yeah, I'm quite hard to contain.

And I think the, the fact that I always believe you can do something, I just do it. So I'm like, well, I have that idea, so how are we gonna do it? And that's kind of what happened.

But yeah, it's basically an insight into my brain organized into a nice little platform.

Sue Davies: 00:10:34

Yeah. Because it's very compartmentalized, isn't it? And, and I suppose it is. And having worked for you, I know that you do do that in your head.

But just for anyone that doesn't know what the Hair and Beauty Directory is, shall we kind of talk through what it does first?

Helen Ward: 00:10:49

Yeah, as long as you don't ask me to put it in a sentence because we know I can't do that.

Sue Davies: 00:10:53

So.

Okay, I'll tell you what I'll do then is I will go through the kinds of people that I know will benefit from it and you can tell me what they can get from it. How does that sound?

Helen Ward: 00:11:02

Sounds better.

Sue Davies: 00:11:03

Okay, so for a. So for a professional working self employed in something other than a.

Well, even in a salon, but for someone that owns a salon industry, a smaller salon. A smaller salon.

Helen Ward: 00:11:17

So for someone like that, because we've got our own platform profiles on there, which are like a landing page, like a mini website, you get your own professional space, which is often better than the average website. And you get your own personalized SEO, so it pushes you up Google quite well. But then you also get this mountain of support.

So we've got articles on there, we've got experts on there. There is places for you to find courses, other experts, brands. There's basically everything that you need in one place. So you can just do like a.

It's a bit like a Google search. You can go on the search panel, search anything you need. But we've kind of got you covered from every angle.

So everybody kind of thinks they're going to be a big business to really stand out. You don't.

Sue Davies: 00:11:59

And so much of it is about the optimization, isn't it? And the SEO stuff that we both kind of play around with quite a lot.

Helen Ward: 00:12:07

I liked it. Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:12:08

And, well, I think, I just think it's interesting seeing how using words in the background of a website make such a big difference and people don't get that opportunity.

If you don't have a website of your own and you don't have something like the Hero Beauty directory, you are not going to get to the top Google very easily.

Helen Ward: 00:12:24

So we actually personalize everybody's SEO on the site. So once people have built their profile, I go on and I personalize all your SEO and figure out what's going to get you high up.

And we also have like a hidden keywords on there that you can put onto your account. And like you said, just a few phrases and a few bits of information and you are spread up.

We actually put to demonstrate how it works with really small businesses. When I came back from Thailand in November, I'd been to a massage salon every day. I'd been there and I love the place.

I was like, I'm just gonna have a little bit of a plan. I put them a profile on. I couldn't contact them because they had no online details. But I put it on and they are top of their search.

So they are not a big business. There is hotels in the area that are offering spas and stuff, but their profile was. Is sitting currently as the top item on the search bar area.

Sue Davies: 00:13:09

Excellent. It's just a way, isn't it? If you don't want the expense of a website, it's a way of having a profile that is visible when people do Google searches.

Helen Ward: 00:13:20

And it looks good. So they do look amazing.

Sue Davies: 00:13:24

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:13:24

Originally when I first set the site up, I put hundreds and hundreds of profiles on there myself. That's how we actually originally built it. So I did them.

And the amount of salons that don't have a website or their website is not a standard that it kind of should be to attract people.

So we actually decided to develop the profiles that we had and we've made them much more visual and, and you know, they look better to client, to potential customers and stuff. So they look really good. And everything that a client needs at a glance is on there. We've set it up that what clients.

Sue Davies: 00:13:54

Want to know, they find brilliant okay, so the next one, some of the large salons and spas. So how is that, is it a very similar thing for them?

Helen Ward: 00:14:04

Exactly the same thing. The, the creator profile. Just the same. You can find exactly the same features. You can find new brands, anything you need to on there.

So yeah, it's a safe setup.

Sue Davies: 00:14:13

Excellent. And so then if we move on to, if we sort of like go through the chain. So suppliers, what are, what do suppliers get from being on.

Helen Ward: 00:14:23

They get a profile as well. So they set a profile of SEO, but they also have all of our members.

So because of the search engine on there, you can actually go on, you can Google Lash supplies, you can Google Nail supplies, anything you need and they'll come up. So it's basically the aim is a global database for I think in our industry it's like a tidy.

Sue Davies: 00:14:41

And so I know as well because I know that I feature in some of these things. So like the podcast is on there. So if you have a podcast you can be on there.

And all of these, they are, all of them are based around the same profile, is that correct?

Helen Ward: 00:14:52

Yeah, we basically have a standardized profile, so it's edited slightly. We have the option to be a treatment provider, a training center or a brand. So you fit into one of those.

So you wrap up providing treatments, providing training or you're something else which will fit into all of the business coaching, podcasts and supplies.

Sue Davies: 00:15:09

That's it. Yeah, because. Because I know you, you are actively looking to recruit podcasters and, and judges and speakers.

And I'm trying to think anybody educators and educators put all of their cool stuff.

Helen Ward: 00:15:25

Accountants, anything that specializes in the beauty industry.

So one of the things that you're talking about, judges and speakers there, One of the things that you can actually do is if you're also planning an event or a competition, you can actually do a search. So you can search for judges, speakers. There's all tags on your profiles.

So if you're somebody that is sitting in the industry and you're wanting to get into judging or speaking at events and stuff. Some of our, we actually have events on there now. So some of the organizer of our events are actually using our platform to find speakers and.

Sue Davies: 00:15:52

Wonderful.

Helen Ward: 00:15:53

So they can actually put a search in for specialist stuff. So acts a little bit like LinkedIn.

Sue Davies: 00:15:57

But yeah, that's for us and I think as well it's, it's important for people to realize that it is a search engine of. I mean obviously it's not Google, but it's.

It's an independent version of Google that will search through your directory to pull up any information that's relevant to that search. And I think the thing that's so nice about it is that it's open, it is open to consumers.

So consumers can go on and find professionals that they can like learn to know, like trust and all of that stuff.

But I think as an industry resource for us to be able to create new part like new connections and new networks, that, that whole search thing, you know, like when we were doing the, the business hub last year, you know, if we'd have had, we've had everybody on there, we spent ages, okay, who can we invite? And like the beauty directory would be so helpful for that kind of process.

Any event that you're organizing and you need, you know, you need voices and faces or whatever to be there, we've.

Helen Ward: 00:16:57

Got database of global experts on there and it takes away the filter of social media. So there's a lot of people that proclaim themselves to be experts on social media. But when you dig deep, you realize that these facts might align.

So when you look at. So for example, if you go onto my profile page, you can actually see my certificates, you can see evidence, you can see all these things.

So it's not just a I am this person, this is, it's a factual site so you can help out people.

Sue Davies: 00:17:26

Excellent. And so also one of the other things that I know that you started doing recently is not only have you got events, you've also got job and recruitment.

Helen Ward: 00:17:37

Yeah. So we added a job feature. We actually added at the same time a job section, A classifies room rental and events. Like I said, it's to please my brain.

So if I'm looking for something, I add it. So I've really struggled building my team in the last year. Really struggled.

And when I started to look for platforms to advertise for our industry, the very far and few between, there used to be quite a few but don't seem to exist anymore. So you've got indeed and indeed was really expensive. Like it actually is a really expensive place to advertise. So we set our own up again.

You've got your profiles, put as much information as you like. We SEO it once you've done. So I put a test one on for me. So I put one on for my salon in Durham.

And if you actually put beauty therapist jobs in Durham, we come up in the top few. We instantly came up in the top couple of spaces of Google because I.

Sue Davies: 00:18:24

Think that it's such a problem, isn't it? Recruitment at the moment. And if you.

And we know that there's a, a lot of salon owners that are changing their model and stopping being employers, which is another whole different. But, but for those that are still wanting to employ and have that full. A full service salon with a full.

With full control over what they do in their business, employment's the only way to go and trying to. I mean, I know. I mean I haven't had my son. I can't believe I sold my son on 4 years ago this year.

But when I had mine, you know, it was always an issue trying to find stuff and, and I used to use Indeed, which was free at that point for what I was doing. But it just doesn't. I mean are you. And we the time wasters. Wow.

Helen Ward: 00:19:12

Yeah. Oh, this is.

Sue Davies: 00:19:14

You know, if people are on, on benefits we used to have a lot of people used to get shortlisted and then they wouldn't turn up for the interviews because they only need to evidence to the job center.

Helen Ward: 00:19:28

It doesn't work for our industry. It just indeed does not work.

Sue Davies: 00:19:31

They just don't. Then they just don't turn up because they just need to evidence they've got interviews and it's like, well, that's a waste of time.

And it then puts you off from using the site, doesn't it? And it then push, you know, and if you're already considering, you know, do I stay being an employer? Then it really starts turning you off.

That whole idea doesn't it's having something specific to the industry. Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:19:52

So people can actually put themselves on there as looking for work as well. So if you're a therapist that's actually looking for.

You can actually put yourself down as you just put the tag looking for work and people can see you're advertising yourself. I'd love that as an employer. I'd love to find somebody. And they were like, oh yeah. But we like.

I say we work like indeed in that we show up in the search engine. So you don't just have to find our site, it's independently showing up on its own.

And my, my advert for here is currently sitting at the top of Google Room rentals doing exactly the same. I did a test one for the room rental for my salon. We don't do room rental but it is a test and we sit in the top three brackets of Google talking.

Sue Davies: 00:20:33

About like the salon owners that are maybe moving away from the employed model. You know, that whole room rental thing is a massive, massive thing now for space renters and room renters and we.

Helen Ward: 00:20:43

Have information on there as well to back that up. So it's always a risky. There's a lot of people not doing it correctly at the moment.

So we also have an article on there to tell you how you should be doing room rental and with the law.

Sue Davies: 00:20:53

Yeah, it is.

I know when I had Real Incon on Before Christmas and we were having a chat about it, I think we're going to do a specific episode on the podcast all about hidden employment. I'm just trying to. Actually, what I need is the Hair and Beauty Directory to be able to summon me up a HR specialist for the salon industry.

That's what I need. I can't ask. You know what?

It's really hard and if anybody knows a HR specialist, can you please put them in my direction because I am really struggling to find one.

Helen Ward: 00:21:21

Oh, really?

Sue Davies: 00:21:22

Yeah, yeah. And I know there's some huge brands out there, but I'd.

I'd rather speak to somebody that's a smaller independent that would like to come and talk to me, but they seem to be quite hard to find, especially anyone that deals specifically with what our issue is in the industry at the moment. But yeah, so do. Yeah.

If you're listening and you're thinking about changing your employed model to self employed, do be careful and make sure you take proper advice.

Helen Ward: 00:21:47

Yeah, that's a whole.

Sue Davies: 00:21:48

Yeah. So with the heritability directory, what do people do so when they go along they can sign up. So just give us a quick rundown of.

Of what the costs are.

Helen Ward: 00:22:00

It is on offer if you're a.

Sue Davies: 00:22:01

Salon wanting to put a profile on or if you're a supplier.

Helen Ward: 00:22:04

So current offer on at the moment is it might.

It probably change by the time if someone's looking at this later on, but at this present moment time it's 49 pounds for the year plus 25 pound for any business profile.

So you, your membership is one thing and then you add as many businesses as you need to and until the end of March is also free to add your events, jobs, classifieds, all those things. It will be a different amount moving forward and it will keep changing as, as we kind of grow and we figure out what costs and stuff we need to.

But we've kept it so cheap like for the amount you get for your money right now we're currently running it. So.

Sue Davies: 00:22:36

So those are annual costs at the moment?

Helen Ward: 00:22:38

Yes. Well, the. So anybody that signed up right now in January it is £49 for them to do the whole year.

Next year it won't Be that price because that is a launch. Launch over. But we are not going to be set too high because we are going for mass numbers rather than a elitist space. We want.

We want it to be a space where all of the really amazing therapists are on there and all the amazing professional suppliers.

But what we want to do is create a space that encourages people to do better, to increase the standards, because we want to have a platform that people want to be on. But we. We don't have everybody on. We, you know, somebody is. Say, for example, somebody is. Is teaching.

They will need to have a teaching qualification if we. We will remove people of our membership if they're doing really low costs or anything like that. So it is not a.

It is not an automatic space for everybody. But we'll. We try to teach people how to align because not everybody knows better.

Sue Davies: 00:23:34

Absolutely. And I do think it's a really important thing because it's something.

Well, you know, that was very close to my heart with what I was trying to do is just to make sure that the educators that are on the platform are of a good quality and do. And they're not on that fight to the bottom of like, you know, offering. There was just a post on one of the.

It was last group actually that got quite animated this week because.

Helen Ward: 00:24:04

Did I miss that one? That's not like me to miss the drama.

Sue Davies: 00:24:07

Yeah, I think so. I think you missed the drama. And it. The thing is, it's just.

It's such a typical post that we have been seeing for too long and I don't know if it's something that's affecting lashes more at the moment because it seems to be a bit of a sort of like shock. Yeah, some people. But I think that, you know, there's people that are offering lash online online foundation lash training which allow that. I don't.

I just don't understand online amp. I get it online. Putting sharp tweezers next to people's eyes.

Helen Ward: 00:24:43

Online with you microneedling massage online. Now we do not allow those courses.

Sue Davies: 00:24:50

But there was. There was a. A very active debate around the rights and wrongs of that. And, and I. There was.

There was one person on there who had taken one of these type of courses and I mean I was looking at her work and it was amazing and she's. But she's gone on and continued to learn and develop and do lots of stuff and her lashes were fantastic.

But alongside all of this, there was also a lot of other people that had lashes duck into their wet line. Lashes stuck into their skin, eyes stuck together. I just, it just is, it's just horrendous and I think anything that we can do that just.

I think so much of it is about raising awareness, isn't it? Of the fact that there are different levels of education and different quality.

Helen Ward: 00:25:37

You know, I've had this conversation a lot recently. The big issue to me is around the teaching qualifications and how are something that's needed so much now.

So when I, when I did my teaching, I think it's about 15 years ago, we had to do a certificate in education via the university. So I had to go to college once a week and do a university led course and we had to have. I can't remember how many hours it was.

I had to do voluntary work. I basically taught a class at least once a week.

Sue Davies: 00:26:02

Voluntary for free hours or something, wasn't it?

Helen Ward: 00:26:06

I can't remember it was, but I can't remember. I did for about 6 months a free class every week. It was quite considerable amount. But anyway, so what?

So you might have one learner that excels on an online course because they're just gifted now. I am, I don't want to say I'm unteachable but I have heard many times people say they can't teach me.

I am very, very difficult to teach because I've got ADHD and I'm dyslexic and my brain will shut down with instructions. So I really struggle. So one of the things that people don't consider these days is not everybody's built the same so they're not being taught.

If you're doing a very basic teaching qualification or you're not learning to teach altogether, you have got no allowances for people's different learning styles. So you know, we're not like kinetic. I can't remember what they all are.

Sue Davies: 00:26:48

Now but there's all the different visual aesthetics. No. Visual, audio, visual, can't even say it. Visual, auditory and K. Kinesthetic.

Helen Ward: 00:26:57

So there's many teachers now that don't even realize that these things exist that, that they, they assume that the way that they at all is the way that other works for everybody. Some I can sit and read from manual. Manual. If I go to a class and someone gets out of my hand, starts reading, I've just gone oh, I can't do.

And I know I won't learn anything because I need to be engaged. People do not learn classroom management anymore. They do not. There's so many things that don't learn and that's why we're in the state we're in.

That is, that is the fundamental reason that we are in the position we're in right now is because there's a lot of people teaching who have no right to be teaching. They don't realize they have no right to be teaching. It's not even their fault.

And we're having all these people that are, that are learning from a PDF.

Sue Davies: 00:27:41

Yeah, yeah.

The thing is, I think you know, there's, there's certain job roles that you can learn from a PDF but I think, you know, we are a practical hands on industry and how. And you need to practically put your hands on people to learn the craft.

Helen Ward: 00:27:59

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:28:00

And trying to do.

ng being taught online was in: 2005

There was somebody on my course who definitely spoke about this and I don't know if she took it or someone that she knew took it. They took an online aromatherapy massage course. It was a. Well back then it was called a correspondence course because it wasn't online.

There was no learning management systems or anything. You just, I don't know, giving you an online. I don't know how it worked then. It's like so long ago, it's like 20 years ago. How did that work then?

And I can remember us all, you know, most of us were like fully holistic therapists and we're just doing an advanced level of something and we were all multiplied that anybody could teach massage at a distance.

Helen Ward: 00:28:55

You can't, can't do it because there's so many. The stuff like body language. So like I teach a lot of people who've already learned courses and maybe aren't doing very well.

And I'd say the majority of people I've come across in particularly body massage, they don't know how to stand correctly or they don't know how to get a posture like that.

There is so many things you need to be in a classroom observing everything that person does so you can correct even like lashes, just the way you put in your elbows or you're putting your wrists and stuff. How do you see that? And also, you know, I'm like, of insurance, how did you prove assessment took place?

How do you prove to insurance in an event of an insurance claim that you were adequately, adequately accessed? You can't do it. It doesn't comply My occupational standards. But that's a whole rant for me to do it.

Sue Davies: 00:29:39

Yeah, that is. That is another whole rant.

Helen Ward: 00:29:41

Independent rant.

Sue Davies: 00:29:42

It is. I know this is a problem with doing this podcast is that where so many of us have so many things that, like, drive us mad, we just go, oh, no, we.

Because you can. We could just go off on a spiral there. But we're going to be good. Helen.

Helen Ward: 00:29:53

I know.

Sue Davies: 00:29:54

We're not. We're not going to go off on a spiral.

Helen Ward: 00:29:56

We're not. But to be fair, this all relates to why I've done what I've done, because it's all based around things. I'm not. We're not a big.

We're not a corporate company. It's me. It is me. And the developer, who everybody knows and hasn't met is Race. Reese hasn't done that. Three C's to do that.

That's the other part of it. It is not the cooperation. It is. It is me and how I want things to be done.

Sue Davies: 00:30:17

Yeah. And an amazing tech guy.

Helen Ward: 00:30:19

Yes. That's Race. That's the one that we. That gets into trouble all the time.

Sue Davies: 00:30:25

I know. Poor Reese got a big job list.

Helen Ward: 00:30:31

I bet at the moment, the amount of times I say, I'm just going to hold off on this one. We're not going to ask him this week for this one.

Sue Davies: 00:30:37

I would. Yeah, we just had that. Add that to the list. Just drip feed it. Drip feed it.

Helen Ward: 00:30:41

I was like, helen, this is not what you said it would be. And I'm like, it's fine. It's fine. Just. Just. You can do it.

Sue Davies: 00:30:46

Just keep going. Just keep going. The thing is, though, is that catfish. But you do need. The industry kind of really, really needs what you're doing. And I think it's.

It's just. It's difficult for people to get behind because it's just such a. A concept that they're not used to.

Helen Ward: 00:31:02

Yeah, it really is.

Sue Davies: 00:31:03

And. And I think that. No. No one's used to someone providing something that's really helpful. Yeah. With no agenda. And not. Yes, it is.

You know, at the end of the day, it's a business, so therefore there is a chargeable element to it.

Helen Ward: 00:31:17

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:31:18

But because there has to be. Because otherwise, you know, the. I mean, I dread to think. I mean, I know the development costs, you know, and I.

And I know that yours are not going to be dissimilar. And. And it's a lot of. It's a lot of time, a lot of money.

That's invested and you know, the industry needs to begin and this is something that's a bugbear of both of ours is that the industry needs to start recognizing that all of that knowledge that comes out of your head into her and Beauty Directory, out of my head into the stuff that I do with the podcast and the Summer Inspector and all the bits I do and all of those other people that have been in this industry and are now giving back that knowledge. It shouldn't be free, no cost.

Helen Ward: 00:31:54

And I'm very naughty because I give, as you know. I do.

Sue Davies: 00:31:56

I do. Yeah, I know. And I've just seen you do. I've just seen you post another free one this morning.

Helen Ward: 00:32:00

Yeah, well, that's the thing. Our members get free webinars. So I quite often do like how to set up your Google profile client retention. All of that is free.

So when you're £49 a year membership you like the Google course along is. Is worth double just your membership and you can set up an encounter. You're like, it's.

Sue Davies: 00:32:18

I think as well that, that it could. This. Although this is, this is. We're going, we're going out of my order. But that's fine.

But the Google thing is something that is really, really important and like you and I both have Google profiles for our businesses. My Google profile for my. I mean I've got my home salon which is, I mean it's negligible. It really is.

I, I think this, so far this year I haven't done a client because I've, I've not been marketing and I've been doing really, really badly and I've done. And I don't want to work full time in that business. I.

That's like, that's something that I do that kind of gives me a bit of enjoyment and a bit of sort of like keeping my hand in, but it isn't, it's not the sum of who I am anymore.

Helen Ward: 00:33:00

No.

Sue Davies: 00:33:01

And, and so that sort of sits there. But even though I'm not doing anything with it because my Google Business profile is done properly, I get probably, I don't know, 50, 60 hits a week.

Helen Ward: 00:33:15

I don't know what they figures out because I don't think it's possible to find out. But I would place a guess that the amount of people in our industry that do not have a gogo profile is very, very high.

And I reckon those that filled it out completely tiny, tiny amount.

Sue Davies: 00:33:31

But we both bang on a lot about Google Business Profile, don't we? And I think because like with the salon inspector stuff that I've been doing, where I've been checking people's. Yeah.

People's online world and how they connect and Google is probably the number one first point of search.

Helen Ward: 00:33:49

The stats will tell you it's. It's 80. 80. It's 83. 87 of people go to Google reviews as the source of authority.

Sue Davies: 00:33:59

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:33:59

I, I say this very publicly. I could not care less how many likes I've got on Instagram. Could not care less.

I, I put stuff on because it's our shop window, but I'm not bothered it doesn't convert to sales farming. Google converts to sales farming.

Sue Davies: 00:34:15

Yeah. And I think that's the thing when I, when my favorite phrase whenever I'm talking about things when I have my salon.

But it is when I have my salon, my Google business profile, I would update that with photographs with posts every single week.

Helen Ward: 00:34:28

Yep.

Sue Davies: 00:34:29

Because it keeps it current and it keeps people engaged. I mean, you know, people don't go on going, oh, I'm going to go and see what, what Sue's put on this week necessarily.

But it helps all the algorithms and the search engine clock.

Helen Ward: 00:34:41

It does.

Sue Davies: 00:34:42

And, and you'll be far better off posting to your Google feed than you would be to your Facebook feed.

Helen Ward: 00:34:48

You. Exactly. 14 years. I opened the sign up. It'd be 14 years this June. And before I opened the Sun Up, I was top of Google.

Sue Davies: 00:34:55

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:34:56

Before any of the salons in the city center. Because this is 14 years ago. I knew that I had to set that up correctly.

Sue Davies: 00:35:02

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:35:02

Because online. Because back 14 years ago online was a thing, but it wasn't what it is now.

I already have less and it's, I can't tell people I'm Paul and just so important. Instagram not.

Sue Davies: 00:35:15

I know this, this is the thing though, isn't it? And it's, I was chatting with, I was, did a workshop on Monday night.

I did a confidence workshop in a membership group and we were chatting and I was like, one of the girls said to me, you know what about Instagram? And I said, I don't really use it. And then I why are you not using it yourself? Would be amazing on there.

And you could break that, you could break this workshop down. You could do all this stuff on Instagram. And I'm like, I, I just, I.

Helen Ward: 00:35:39

Don'T, I'm on there. Do you know, I'm not on there because I don't need to be popular.

Just, just to me, Instagram is, is quite, it does bring leads to some people in the industry and it definitely does. For some it's temporary and fickle and for me it doesn't convert to money.

Sue Davies: 00:35:57

No, I just don't. The only reason I post on Instagram is because my messy business suite post to Instagram. Yeah. And I think I probably sound like an old dinosaur.

Really. It's what I was saying this meeting the other night is I do sound like a bit of a dinosaur.

But in light of all of the stuff that's going on with social media currently, I don't know that any of us should be investing that much in social media anymore. And that's that. And that is actually another full podcast that's going to be something quite innovative for this podcast.

It's going to be coming very soon because there is going to be a big discussion about it because we actually do have to start looking at our world away from social media and Google Business profile and things like the Hair and Beauty Directory are the way to go. They have. And building your email. We have to. We have to start thinking. We don't want to go back to the days of yellow Pages by any means.

But there are many alternatives to social media that can help you grow your business.

Helen Ward: 00:36:55

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 00:36:56

It's about time we all started kind of. Yeah. It is looking at what those are. It is.

Helen Ward: 00:37:01

It's just a very dangerous and risky line building your entire business on Instagram when the algorithms change and you can get hacked. Like the groups. Like at one point it's like, right, we're going to jump to groups. Groups are going to work. This works.

And now no, that doesn't work anymore.

Sue Davies: 00:37:15

And realizing doesn't work. You pay. Even if you pay them money. It doesn't work.

Helen Ward: 00:37:21

That doesn't. You have to really know what you're doing to make. To get the Google Ads work.

But I know people have very, very successful careers in our industry which was based on Instagram popularity. And they do not get the work that they're used to because the algorithms change. And. And it's what.

What Instagram has decided their version of Popular is. And if you fit into what they're trying to achieve, then you're out.

Sue Davies: 00:37:44

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's something I'm going to be looking into and. And.

And Hair and Beauty Directory kind of sums it up very well in the fact that it is a search engine. Is. This is being. Instead I'm going to get my words around the right way is utilizing search instead of social.

Helen Ward: 00:38:03

Yes. But that. You know that my original plan was and it's something we're working to do very shortly is we're going to be switching.

It's going to become a social media platform for our industry. So when you log in, you will get that search facility. It will be.

Sue Davies: 00:38:16

Yeah, but it will also still have the, it'll have the search facility running alongside it and it. And it won't be. I mean obviously social media is probably a bit of an overarching term for what you're planning, but it will be probably.

I don't know and correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're potentially going to put on there is going to be much more akin to like what Salon Geek was years ago. For those of us that have been around for a very long time. Is it more like that sort of forum?

Helen Ward: 00:38:40

It will work very so much like a newsfeed like you will on social media. So when you go on to your like our members hub, that will eventually become your newsfeed.

But what it'll be is say for example, where I sit as a salon, I will follow the people that I have products from. I will follow a handful of people that I want to hear from and you'll see their updates. So it won't be like social media in the. The huge focus.

Sue Davies: 00:39:05

So you won't get all of the recommend the recommended follows. I mean like my feed, it won't be for clients. It's full of things that I have literally no interest in.

I don't know who they are and, and it's just Facebook prompting me to like to follow none of that.

Helen Ward: 00:39:19

It will be a streamlined thing where you basically control it. That's. That's the plan. That's what we're looking into doing.

Sue Davies: 00:39:24

And that'd be so amazing because we have got to try and find alternatives to because at the end of the day they are a toxic environment and it's only going to get more so in the coming years. And so anything we can do to kind of to find a new pathway has got to be better.

Helen Ward: 00:39:41

Yeah. Also I don't want to be on social media that much like that.

One of the reasons I came up with this idea and it was the original plan for there and to be. Derek I don't want to be on social media very much.

Sue Davies: 00:39:51

No.

Helen Ward: 00:39:52

With so much of my life sitting and scrolling through. So if I can set up where I can go and look at.

So I have my Instagram account, I have numerous Instagram accounts and I don't follow businesses and I don't follow my Personal Instagram. I follow about 20 people and it's really weird stuff like vegan recipes. I'm not vegan and it's just stuff that I want to please my brain with.

I don't want to see any of the outside stuff. So the plan with the directory was that there'll be a place you could go to follow industry people that you could escape from.

Yeah, you don't need to see it in your newsfeed.

Sue Davies: 00:40:26

I know because one of the things when I was doing this workshop the other night and we were talking about the overwhelm, how impacting that can be and I, I asked everyone to put their hands up if the first thing they did in the morning was pick their phone up. There was 11 of us on this call and I think all but one put their hand up.

And then I asked them to raise their hand if the first thing they did when they picked their phone up after turning their alarm off was to look at social media. And I think eight people looked at social media first.

Helen Ward: 00:41:01

Guilty.

Sue Davies: 00:41:02

And it's just, I mean I get lost, I don't want that life anymore doom scrolling and I just sit and just fall down rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole and it's just such a waste of brain space, of time, of energy. Just think all the things that you know.

And like now I'm trying, I am trying to be better but this morning I went down the hole just like I woke up really early and was like, oh, now what am I going to do?

Helen Ward: 00:41:26

Yeah, I'm waiting for the sun to come up currently because I wake up the same time and I can't take the dogs out until the sun comes up. So I do the same.

But I'm trying to do better in every aspect of my life and one of those is to, is to start coming away from social media because there's actually no gain to it really. There's no over the night chicken once.

Sue Davies: 00:41:44

A day rubbish that I have no interest in or just like, you know, some celebrity that I don't even know who they are really. But they said something about this thing and it's like, oh well, I better go and see what they know, who they are.

Why do I need to have my head filled with this rubbish?

Helen Ward: 00:42:00

And I've started to look at tick tock now like why, why am I.

Sue Davies: 00:42:03

Looking, I'm never, I don't do Tick tock. I'm not going on.

Helen Ward: 00:42:05

I've never used do I try to keep. And I'm like finding myself looking at drones in America. And I'm like, what are you doing?

And now I'm starting to get worried about things that, that I. That I know aren't real.

Sue Davies: 00:42:16

No, what we need to be worried about is where our next client's coming from.

Helen Ward: 00:42:20

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:42:21

Or where we're going to sell our next product or. Or whatever.

Helen Ward: 00:42:24

Oh, yes. A social media cleanse is definitely the way forward. I'm dealing with the wine cleanse first and then I'll go to social media.

Sue Davies: 00:42:30

Yeah. Oh, no.

So moving on from all the Google stuff and the social media dramas, so one of the things that you are very passionate about and I'm very passionate about is this. Actually. No, hang on. Because we probably now we've been jumping around. We knew we were going to do this. Okay.

Helen Ward: 00:42:54

Right.

Sue Davies: 00:42:54

Okay. So hang on. I've got to go back through me list now and work out what we haven't covered so far. Yeah. So. So organ. All quiet.

It's not good for the podcast. So we were talking about social media not being everything.

So how can we strike the balance, do you think, between online marketing and the other strategies? So what, so how do you like for your salon? Because you've got very successful salon.

So how, for example, would you divide your time between social media marketing and doing alternatives? Like, do you do email marketing? So how do you.

Helen Ward: 00:43:32

I. I call social media my shop window or I don't. It's basically that so people can see what we do. So I actually do.

I've just done a month's worth of social media. Blow it up. And it's to go on. It is to show people who are interested in me what we do. So I try to look at it from the target client point of view.

So I would be, in a lot of cases, a target client and the age category for a lot of it. I will always seek out quality. So I am one of the target clients.

So if I'm looking for something, I will go to Google, I will put in the search engine and I will see what comes up on that top page. Then I go and do more research. So I will go to their Instagram and Facebook. I look at the reviews. So my, my initial lead generator is Google.

Whether that's my Google profile or what is, what's coming up in the searches. So one of the things I did very early on was I made sure that all those things that were coming up on the first page I was in.

So back then it was stuff like yellow pages, yell, all of Yelp, whatever it was. So you make sure that you're the end of each of those leads. Because Google also likes to be able to. I call it like a spider's web.

It likes to be able to ping and find you in various places. So you need to take advantage. Yes, you need to take advantage of every ping you can get.

So you need, you do need to be on Instagram, you do need to be on Facebook, you do need to be on TripAdvisor. You can get all those kind of things because Google goes, ah, this person is relevant. They're in all of these little pots.

So we use Google as our lead generator, our pro, our. My Google Maps is my biggest lead generator. Once we've got them on there, then it's to our website, Instagram, Facebook, and then we use.

Once we've got those and the clients come through the door, we use our email campaigns. Email campaigns is my biggest one for maintaining my client list.

Sue Davies: 00:45:15

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:45:15

So it's a process.

Sue Davies: 00:45:17

Yeah. And so, so then you use your email list. So do you send out emails to, for example, people that have.

Because I know that, I know you use a good booking system. So you will be able to instantly go. I have this group of clients that haven't been to us for three months.

I have this clients have been to us for a year. And so you're doing marketing campaigns to re.

Helen Ward: 00:45:39

To re.

Sue Davies: 00:45:39

Invite them back to your business.

Helen Ward: 00:45:41

I don't actually use the filter process for that because some of those clients we don't want.

Sue Davies: 00:45:45

Well, there is this. That's true. But then if you've got a good system.

Helen Ward: 00:45:51

We go through and we look and we see who we. Yeah, we want to target. And so that's what. I was just giving a call. That's something we're doing today.

We're actually, we're actually working our way through our database and figuring out our stats. And we're doing, we're actually doing it by hand because we really want to kind of. I'm very big on using all of the software stuff we've got.

I like, I'm very big into technology and I like data, but sometimes I feel like you need to have that personal aspect. So I've got the girls that. I've currently got my team going for their own columns and doing this. But yeah, we do, we, we.

I don't do a lot of email marketing because I don't like to receive a lot of emails. So I would never send more than one, probably one a week. Sometimes we go weeks without sending one. But we do keep in touch with our clients.

Via email.

Sue Davies: 00:46:37

It's nice not to overload people, isn't it? I know that whenever I do anything I, I'm always very mindful. Sometimes I like getting lots of emails from people.

If I like the people, I don't mind getting lots of emails from them because it just sort of makes you go, ah kind of thing when you see them in your inbox and you can just scroll past it and not open it.

Helen Ward: 00:46:54

Whereas I'm an angry person going unsubscribe, unsubscribe by your email. I don't like to, I don't like to like. I didn't do a Black Friday.

I didn't do Black Friday because I call Black Friday, unsubscribed her because I literally went from inbox and unsubscribed everybody.

Sue Davies: 00:47:09

You know what, I did it the other day. I cleared. I'd got to a really bad level. I had about two and a half thousand unread emails. I don't think I've ever been so bad in my life.

It's horrendous. And I managed.

I sat over one over like a weekend and just every time I was sat down having a cup of tea or not doing very much, I just went through and cleared. Unsubscribe, unsubscribe, unsubscribe. So yeah, I even unsubscribed.

Helen Ward: 00:47:31

Those are my junk. I, I never have on opened anything on mine. I, yeah, I like used to have.

Sue Davies: 00:47:37

When I actually, when I had the salon, I was far, far better. Since I've worked, done like working from home, I've been truly awful and it's so bad. I could, I could make myself feel better though.

Just go in and select all. And markers read.

Helen Ward: 00:47:54

Oh, no, no.

Sue Davies: 00:47:57

I still feel internal guilt for doing that. So I can't. No. So one of the other things I wanted to talk to you about is the fact that you travel so much to update your knowledge.

Helen Ward: 00:48:15

About your: 2000

Sue Davies: 00:48:19

You can come and sort Matt for me if you want, Helen.

Helen Ward: 00:48:22

Yeah, I do. I do a lot of events globally. Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:48:26

Yeah. Because you're always jetting off all over the place and as you know, I get quite envious. But, but what is it that makes you want to do that?

Is it some. Is it. I mean, obviously you like traveling.

Helen Ward: 00:48:37

I like traveling.

Sue Davies: 00:48:38

You like long haul. What sort of events is it that you do go to and what was it like? Maybe the, the question is what was the first one you did internationally?

Because that gives us an idea of.

Helen Ward: 00:48:50

ing games in Vegas, which was: 2019

I went off to Vegas and did a lot. It was it. Looking back, I'm just like, what are we doing? But I had such a good time. Like, I love events.

It's not like I do the conferences in England. I go to the normal shows, but I won't name any. But I go to them. And after, I don't actually enjoy the actual conference, exhibition, whatever it is.

I like absorbing the atmosphere, the people, the networking, the things that you learn.

And I always say, even if I've traveled to LA or recently Hong Kong for an event, even if I come away with one little thing that changes the way I do things, it's worth the money.

So if you go away and you come away with just one bit that goes, you know what I really should be doing, that it can really have a big impact on the way you do things and potentially the money that you make.

So it served me well because I've managed to build these connections up globally just from sitting at the bar in a hotel, having a lot of cases, chatting to people.

Sue Davies: 00:49:54

Handy.

Helen Ward: 00:49:55

Yeah. I don't even have the time. I don't even know who I'm talking to. But I've got this really good net. I've got an authentic network.

Sue Davies: 00:50:01

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 00:50:02

Because it's people I've met through genuine conversation.

Sue Davies: 00:50:05

And I think that's important, isn't it, that. I mean, I know. Oh, my God. Her name escapes me completely. Who came over be.

Helen Ward: 00:50:14

Oh, definitely. Yeah.

Sue Davies: 00:50:16

Yeah. And. Yeah. Something. Yes. She came over, didn't she? To the business?

Helen Ward: 00:50:20

No, we met at the bar and the skin get one just. So. Yeah, there's. There's so many reasons I do it. I. I think there's a real ignorance in our industry that you know it all as well.

So, like, I trained our 90s and if I.

If I was still doing things the way I was in the 90s, this would not be a good look for me because some of the things we learned then were amazing and have served me very well. But if I was still cutting people's cuticles off and all that kind of business, there's things that change.

So to me, if it's a very lonely industry sometimes, so even though I've got a team, it's still lonely for me because I have nobody to relate to. So going to events means that I Am always in the know. I know what the brands, what's coming through.

So, for example, I've just been to Hong Kong and the big talk out there was Korean skincare. One of the biggest things we're talking about. There's just a professionalism to it. Yeah.

I just love everything about it and honestly, I don't know why people don't do it.

Sue Davies: 00:51:14

I think it's a really interesting thing, isn't it? I mean, there's so many shows around the world and so many conferences, conferences and so many training opportunities. And I mean, I've.

I've gone, I think the furthest I've been. I was very, very upset once I was in LA on holiday, same time CosmoProf was on.

Helen Ward: 00:51:30

I didn't go.

Sue Davies: 00:51:31

No. I was with the family and I didn't have a ticket. And I got there and I actually saw. I saw.

I don't know if you know, Nicaradutu, who used to be now Harmony uk. And I'm walking, I'm walking through the hotel and all of a sudden I walked past Nick Herodota and I'm like, what? It was. And it was like, no.

And there was so many people I knew were there. Yeah, I was. I was that close to going to Cosmoproft.

Helen Ward: 00:52:01

Vegas one is probably one of the best ones to go to as well, because there's always a lot going on outside of it. So I go to a lot of, like, parties, events, a lot of networking. Love it.

Sue Davies: 00:52:11

I know. And I think the most I've done international travel for work is I've done Ireland a lot. I've been to Ireland a lot, which has always been fun.

And I've been to Slovenia and was judging a competition out there that was good. But, yeah, that's about as much as I've done for, like, international travel for work. And it's mostly.

I always get very envious when you go away because it's like I just expense as well.

Helen Ward: 00:52:30

So if you go into like a business, also business spots. But to me, it's just. I think there's a People cap themselves in this industry.

I was having this conversation with the girls that worked for me yesterday now, and we were talking about how they can increase their income and stuff. And I was like, I want to be able to proudly say my team earn a lot of money.

They have amazing perks that really enjoy the job, they're very successful. And I think our industry caps itself all of the time and what its potential is. Why can't global travel be part of your agenda.

Why can't your work life?

Sue Davies: 00:52:59

Yeah, absolutely. And also one of the things that you travel for is to compete.

So I know you can be in games and in lash competitions internationally and I know from a lot of my contacts when I was doing now competition management and all that kind of stuff is a lot of the girls did go over to the States and did compete in, in Vegas.

And I know the absolute changing, life changing stuff that happened to them when they did, when they made that commitment because it is, you know, it isn't cheap, especially if you've got to take models with you. You know, it isn't cheap because you've got to pay for their flights and accommodation as well.

But if you can go out there and represent yourself and your country and all of that kind of stuff. Because it does come down to like when you're competing internationally, it does come down to you are competing and representing the union.

Helen Ward: 00:53:44

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely.

Sue Davies: 00:53:46

And you know, and if you, if you can, even if you place, it's just an amazing opportunity to, to highlight you and your skills and your business, isn't it?

The advantages to competing, whether that's in awards or whether it is in practical skill competition, people don't necessarily realize the benefits that that can bring to your.

Helen Ward: 00:54:09

Marketing campaign in so many parts because it allows. It means that you scrutinize everything that you do as well.

So particularly doing online, online lash competitions was a big game changer for me because you would do a set, you take a picture and you go. And sometimes I did them over three days, I get the model back in, we change things or do things because you had to scrutinize every little detail.

So because you pushed yourself to such an extreme point of perfection, it means that because obviously when you're in the salon you don't do things the same way. But it took you to high extreme that when you relax down, it was still higher than the average person.

Sue Davies: 00:54:43

Yeah, is.

And I think even though, I mean I have competed in now competitions a couple of times, but I spent a lot more time judging and organizing them than I did competing in them.

But just watching the other, just watching competitors as when I used to floor judge and stuff and I used to watch some of the girls painting nails and there was, there was one now take Ella lost chick who's based up in Edinburgh I think still. And I'm watching her paint. There was two, two girls, her and Pippa Hebden. And watching those two girls paint nails was just like an edgy.

There was so many of the floor judges. Judges had just be stood because it was, it was mesmerizing watching them paint and.

And I learned, even though I'd been qualified for years, I learned so much. So much watching them paint and how they broke down that structure is, is.

It's one of the most rewarding things I think, is being involved in competition.

Helen Ward: 00:55:37

Oh, 100. Yeah. And I think really that comes where you want to be in the industry. So I like to be the best at everything that I can be.

It's not just about competitions.

And I think you have to decide in any job that you do, particularly our industry, where you want to sit there, do you want to be somebody that's extraordinary at what you do? Because you always have a choice to be that. And I said to you earlier that I'm very unjust teachable.

I've never been naturally gifted at anything in my life. I am like, I'm good at nothing. People say, what's your natural talent? I don't have one.

I've had to just work incredibly, incredibly hard at perfecting every single thing I do.

But I think choice we can make in this industry, you can choose to be basic, you can choose to be below average, you can choose to be average, you can choose to be extraordinary at what you do. And competitions will push you into that. Into that, that space.

Sue Davies: 00:56:24

Yeah, I. I really do think everybody should enter some form competitive arena.

Helen Ward: 00:56:31

I met my stuff.

Sue Davies: 00:56:32

Do it. Yeah, absolutely. I always used to encourage my team to do it and I think, you know, and I always used to push myself.

From the moment my salon doors opened, I was preparing to enter Scratch Stars because it had been suggested to me by. By Helena Biggs, who organized it. She comes to my salon to do an article on it to be Scratch paddle. And she's like, you have to enter.

I'm like, I've just opened. And she's like, you have to enter. And I got finalist and then. And I came third. And then the next year I did it again and I came fine.

I got finalists and came second because I listened to the feedback and I improved and I made sure I did stuff that I was told I was missing out on and I learned. And then the next year I went back a third time and I was like, if I don't win this time, I said, I'm never doing it again. And I wonder.

But it was a determination, isn't it, to just. To keep chipping away and just making those changes and improvements and.

Helen Ward: 00:57:22

But what you said there was what it is.

Sue Davies: 00:57:24

You're doing huge.

Helen Ward: 00:57:25

Key to what you said in that when you were talking about the feedback was you took on board. What we find a lot of now is people see as a criticism. Don't tell me to run my business. Like, they'll ask a question.

People have put up a picture of the nails on, for example, the lashes, and like, can I have some feedback? What they want is validation. They want people to say, oh, my God, this amazing set. What's your lashma? What's this?

But actually, what you need is for someone to rip it at pieces and tell you to be better. But they don't want to hear that. As soon as you do that.

People get defensive when whatever I've done in life, you know, with me having the dogs and competing those. When somebody's being above me, I will literally stalk it until I figure out how I can be that. Whereas now it's an insult. Oh, don't tell me I'm not.

You know, so what you said there was absolute key to career change.

Sue Davies: 00:58:07

And one of the.

h stars and I entered between: 2015

And all through that time, I was most often, especially in the salon category. I was the only one that ever asked for feedback. Wow. And there was two salon categories, so that's five finalists in each one.

So that's 10 salons every year. And I was the only one ever asked for feedback.

Helen Ward: 00:58:47

Crazy.

Sue Davies: 00:58:49

And it's like, don't. If you don't. If you don't want to be judged, don't enter. You know, then don't enter a competition.

But the judging process is there to help help you improve and learn. And you have to take the critique. I always, whenever I judge for scratch or any.

Any competition, I always provide feedback on the areas where I felt that they have areas where they could improve on and how I fit, how I feel they could improve. I mean, they can take or leave.

Helen Ward: 00:59:13

It, but critique is an opportunity for growth. Every time you get critique, we do it with reviews. If we ever get a bad review, I say, that's a positive. Because we.

Rather than going, oh, my God, this client shouldn't have said this. And they say, but what did we do to lead to that? Even if they've been Completely in the wrong and out of order. Something still led to that happening.

What can we do?

Sue Davies: 00:59:32

Absolutely. And I, I think, you know, I, I remember the first time I got a, a three star review and I've spoke, I spoke about this at different points as well.

I can't remember.

Helen Ward: 00:59:44

Three star review. That's, that's, that's you still holding up to all these years.

Sue Davies: 00:59:48

I was like, really? And, and this guy left this three star review two years after his treatment. Just. And, and it was one word and it just said expensive.

And it brought me down from a five. I'd had a five star review for years and it knocked me down to a 4.4 or something. I was gutted. I was so upset. But that's his, that's his prerogative.

He's allowed to do that on Google. It probably still sits there on the old gorgeous Google now. And along with my reply that was, you know, I'm so sorry you feel this way.

And I'm really, you know, I don't know what it is that has taken two years for you to know that. But I love a good feedback. We're obviously not for everybody kind of thing.

Helen Ward: 01:00:34

It's like I actually teach this in my Google class that I do that actually having a few negatives is actually a real bonus because 5 stars all the time, realistic. A 4.9 is like an end because that makes you look more real. But also it's an opportunity for you to respond. And it's like if you go on hold.

I read some of the reviews and I laugh. I'm like, oh my. Like this person is insane. So having a few negative reviews is definitely, it's not a bad thing because.

Sue Davies: 01:01:03

I think as well is it gets you to, it gets you to. As I say that day I think I probably even cried. I was so upset because it had taken me.

Helen Ward: 01:01:13

You know when you.

Sue Davies: 01:01:14

But you put so much effort into getting those reviews and being the best and all the rest of it. And, and it was. And the thing is, I think had it been we did a bad job, I probably would have taken it better.

Helen Ward: 01:01:26

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 01:01:27

I think the fact that it was based on price and he'd chosen to come to us and pay the money, he didn't have to do that.

But I think whenever that I think on, on my old salon Google reviews, I think there's two that have got a negative spin to them and both of them I went back and dealt with and, and I think that you can, you can show your level of customer.

Helen Ward: 01:01:52

Oh absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:01:53

And what you're.

Because if you go, if you go back and you just, if you just go back with like a hateful phrase of like, oh, well, don't bother coming again, then people immediately know that you probably aren't a very great, great like salon owner who's not going to be that nice to them if they have.

Helen Ward: 01:02:09

A problem, definitely a technique, go back.

Sue Davies: 01:02:10

And, and you know, and thank them for their review because they've still, whether they've said something positive or negative, they've still taken the time out to, to do that. So, you know, thank them for their review and, and take the time to respond in an unemotional way. Because I think that's the thing, isn't it? Is.

I probably was quite upset that day and I didn't, I didn't respond for probably a week because I had to let that, I had to let that emotional bit go before I responded in a professional customer led way.

Helen Ward: 01:02:41

I think they're an opportunity. So I actually, I've only had a couple of one stars and one of them, I mean, I, I put the details on there.

When someone gives me one, I'm always very polite and this is what circumstance. But I had one where I actually had to call it to report one of the ladies to the place and I put that on.

I said, thank you very much for leaving this review. I'm very glad you've done it because it gives an opportunity for any of the sound owners to read this and warn them about your behavior.

Sue Davies: 01:03:03

Yes.

Helen Ward: 01:03:03

Yeah, I put on that I'd actually had to call the police on, on you and that you were very intimidating my staff and you are never welcome again.

And actually I was very polite about it, but it was, it also gave me an opportunity for anybody raved in my reviews to understand what I won't tolerate. That we're a very professional salon and we will not ever tolerate aggressive behavior, any of these things.

So my review, my replies are always good, kind of. I never shy away from it. I'm always, thank you. But the thing is, and you can't.

Sue Davies: 01:03:35

You know, you can't be visible online and not expect someone somewhere to try and take you down.

Helen Ward: 01:03:41

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:03:42

As soon as your head's above the parapet, someone's going to fire at you. And if you get, you know, if you have 10 years where it doesn't happen, then really well done.

Helen Ward: 01:03:51

Yeah.

Sue Davies: 01:03:52

But at some point, you know, you just have to be prepared and you do have to respond in a, in an adult, professional, unemotional business way.

Helen Ward: 01:04:01

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:04:02

Yeah. And I think this is. I think that's part of our problem as well, isn't it? I think because we are an.

In an industry now of individuals more often than not, you know, and so many businesses now are solos. And I think it does feel very.

Helen Ward: 01:04:15

Personal when I don't take it personal. But I'm built slightly differently, you know. But yes, I think it's impossible not to feel something. I.

I do still feel a little bit of a, oh, why didn't you just run yours? But I'm like, everyone's entitled. It's offenses in there is in your hands.

Sue Davies: 01:04:32

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 01:04:32

I choose not to be offended.

Sue Davies: 01:04:34

Yeah. I think, you know. Yeah. Mostly people don't intend to offend. It is like you say, it's how you receive those words, whether offense is caused or not.

Helen Ward: 01:04:44

Exactly. Mental health is a big issue now.

You know, you don't know what somebody's going through when the leader, you know, when people are online leaving the hate stuff, there's usually mental health issue behind it. So I'm just kind of like, if you want. If you need to put these things out there, then.

Sue Davies: 01:04:57

Yeah, yeah. It's just. It's difficult, isn't it?

I want to go back, though, actually, something you were saying earlier that it can be quite lonely being a salon owner.

Helen Ward: 01:05:06

Absolutely.

Sue Davies: 01:05:07

And which I resonate with as well. And I think probably because although you are surrounded by your team and. And I think loneliness is something.

And it sort of means to just sound about being like so many individuals now and there's so many solos. And I think there's a whole thing about being on your own in your business and being in your home salon and being on your own.

But that also, that thing of being in a salon and being surrounded by two staff, 10 staff, however many it is, because you are the owner, you're still on your own because, you know, you. You head the team. You're not part of the team in that way. You are part of the team, but, you know, I mean, you're not differentiation.

I mean, you're in charge of them. Yeah.

Helen Ward: 01:05:46

You're leading it.

Sue Davies: 01:05:47

And, and sitting at the top is a lonely place because you are at the, you know, the top of the pyramid. And.

And I do think that loneliness is just such a massive thing in this industry and is part of the reason that we're kind of eating ourselves a little bit. Because people just don't. They don't. They haven't got that peer support around. Yeah.

Helen Ward: 01:06:06

There's no outlet. There's no outlet for the Rage, the worry, the shame sometimes, because shame is definitely something that you feel when you were in a business.

There's so many different things. I don't have children, but I can't imagine it's a bit like being a single parent, that you are the, you are the core person running that ship.

You're the responsible adult, you make the decisions, you're in charge. You know, it is, like I said, even though I work with people, it's a very, it's a very lonely thing to do.

Sue Davies: 01:06:31

Yeah.

Helen Ward: 01:06:31

And I think I like it on my own.

Sue Davies: 01:06:34

Yeah. I mean, I, I have to say I like being on my own. I do that.

But it's one of, part of the reason that I still do the salon and I've got, I've got a couple of things where I still make sure I go out and I, I, I do human things instead of just being sat at a laptop because you do have to kind of go and do humaning every now and again.

But I just, it's been a bit of a theme through the first sort of few episodes of this season of this thing of, of, of just being fairly alone and needing that peer support.

And I asked when I was talking to Steph Stevenson, we were talking about the fact that, you know, as a solo worker, like where you are, you still get all that feedback because if some, you know, if the girls do an amazing set of nails or they do an amazing whatever walking through the salon, the other clients are going to notice and comment and you'll get that, that peer feedback of, oh, that was a nice set of nails. What did you do there? What color was that?

But when you're on your own and you're working in a home business, you don't get that level of feedback, do you?

But I still find it really interesting that even though, like when, like reviewers are selling owner, when I know when I was a seller owner, even though you have all of that there, you can still feel really lonely, I think.

Helen Ward: 01:07:40

Sometimes more so because so many people depending on you, you can't, you can't tell them what the dependent, what's going wrong. You come into work every day and the face is on and they have no idea the stuff that's going on.

And, and I've had this conversation many times recently that post pandemic, and especially now running a business is incredibly, incredibly hard. I can't even stress that I'm gonna, how difficult it is in this last year, all the changes and stuff. I can't even put my finger on.

Sue Davies: 01:08:07

What even began to talk about that. We've not even begun to talk about that week. And I do have to disappear off soon.

Helen Ward: 01:08:14

Yeah. I think it's important that people know that that's okay to feel that way because.

Sue Davies: 01:08:19

Okay.

Helen Ward: 01:08:20

I do run a city center business and we on the subway, I think looks fine. I think it's great.

Sue Davies: 01:08:26

It's hard work is. And I know we've had the conversation so many times of, you know, I really do feel for salon owners now because it is a difficult place.

It's no wonder so many are wanting to change their model because it's a lot on your shoulders with nics and everything that's changed in the last few months. And it's. I don't know, hope. All you can hope is that the economy starts making a shift and that and things start evaporating. That's. It will.

Because it always. It goes through peaks and troughs and it will improve, but it's just. It's just waiting for the next. The next stop.

Helen Ward: 01:08:57

And business owners are just got. I say this all the time. You've got to pivot fast. All the time. We're pivoting at the moment. We're making changes.

And every time something happens, I try and get ahead of the curve because you see it coming. We're about to go into a big crisis. I've pivoted. I'm on it, but I'm sick of pivoting.

Sue Davies: 01:09:12

So I can see is Ross on Friends now.

Helen Ward: 01:09:14

Pivot. Pivot. I have a T shirt.

Sue Davies: 01:09:18

The pivoting thing is massive. And I know that we are going to have. We're going to pick up again.

We were just talking before we started today, weren't we, about another podcast that I'm going to do where we can hopefully pick up on some more of this stuff going forward.

But for today, Helen, I just really want to say thank you so much for coming on and it's been a really great conversation where I'm hoping that a lot of people have got a better understanding of the Hair and Beauty directory and that you get. You get more people on there, because I do think it's a really useful tool for everybody. So can you, most importantly, just give us what is the.

What is the web address for Hair and Beauty directory?

Helen Ward: 01:09:58

Is the usual www.the hair beauty@thehairandbeauty.directory. the hairand beauty Directory.

Sue Davies: 01:10:08

That's it. And. And you can find the Hair and Beauty Directory on Facebook. And.

Helen Ward: 01:10:13

Hello. You just put Hair and Beauty Director in Google. Yeah. Come on. Google.

Sue Davies: 01:10:19

Do go and find it because it is a really, really amazing resource and. Yeah. And then you can, you can get yourself up the Google rankings and get more business for your business.

Helen Ward: 01:10:30

That's right. That's the key.

Sue Davies: 01:10:32

Wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Helen. Thank you for me. That's okay. And I will hit the stop button. Thank you so much and I will catch you next time.

Bye for now. Is your salon delivering the exceptional client.

Helen Ward: 01:10:46

Journey you've always envisioned? The Salon Inspector, led by industry expert Sue Davies, is here to help you elevate every step of the client experience.

From the moment clients discover your salon online to the ease of booking and the clarity of your service offerings, every detail counts. The Salon Inspector's Client Experience Audit offers a digital mystery shop of your business.

Featuring a thorough review of your branding, consistency, online presence and client communication.

Sue Davies: 01:11:16

Sue assesses the touch points you've created.

Helen Ward: 01:11:19

To ensure a seamless and memorable experience that keeps clients coming back again and again ready to transform your salon's client journey. Visit su-davies.com to schedule your audit today. Salon Inspector Turning good experiences into great ones.

Sue Davies: 01:11:38

Thank you for listening to inspiring Salon professionals.

If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do subscribe, leave a review and don't forget, share with your fellow industry professionals and other business owners that you think may enjoy the show. Links and further information can be found on the Show Notes or on my website, www.sudavies.com.

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