Salon Success: Mastering HR and Managing Disguised Employment Risks with Rebecca Day
The salon industry is facing challenging times, and with it comes the need for salon owners to adapt to the changes that are on the horizon in employment law. My chat with Rebecca Day sheds light on the important, and often misunderstood, topic of disguised employment. It's a trap many salon owners fall into as they try to find ways to work around the complexities of regulation and trying to build a successful team.
We discuss the upcoming changes in legislation that will impact how salons operate, particularly regarding employee rights and the classification of self-employed workers. Rebecca emphasises the importance of understanding the practical implications of employment status, urging salon owners to reflect on their business practices and ensure they align with legal requirements. We talk through HMRC's recent update of introducing a specific Hair & Beauty CEST form (Check Employment Status for Tax) which will help both businesses and the self employed person/employee make an informed choice on proceeding in that relationship.
This episode serves as a wake-up call, highlighting the need for salon owners to be proactive in their HR strategies. We also touch on the emotional aspects of managing a team, and discussing the fact that behind every HR challenge are real people whose livelihoods, homes and families depend on these decisions.
The dual topics of today's episode will create a great resource for any employers, self employed solo professionals and employees to make sure they're all on the same page and on the right side of the legislation. No one wants to end up in Employment Tribunal and Rebecca's advice helps all parties understand the best pathway.
Takeaways:
- The concept of disguised employment is increasingly relevant for salon owners as legislation evolves, making it important to understand the differences between self-employment and employment.
- Understanding the practical implications of disguised employment can save salon owners from significant financial liabilities related to taxes and employee rights claims.
- To manage the challenges of HR in the salon industry, salon owners should maintain robust recruitment processes and clear service agreements with self-employed professionals.
- As new employment laws come into effect, salon owners must adapt their HR practices to ensure compliance, particularly regarding employee rights and flexible working arrangements.
- The importance of defining clear roles and expectations to avoid misunderstandings between salon owners and self-employed workers, particularly in client management and service delivery.
- Maintaining open communication and understanding the legalities surrounding self-employment can help salon owners build a positive workplace environment and mitigate potential disputes.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- Day HR Consultants
- Salonpreneur
- Estee Lauder
- Mac
- Jo Malone
- Bobby Brown
- Springboard
Transcript
Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals, the podcast that allows every therapist, nail tech and stylist to level up, build their career and reach for their dreams.
Speaker A:Each episode we'll be looking at a different area of the industry and along the way I'll be chatting with salon owners, industry leaders and experts who'll be sharing their stories on how they achieved their goals, made their successes, all to inspire you in your business and career.
Speaker A:I'm Sue Davies, your host, award winning salon owner and industry professional.
Speaker A:Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals.
Speaker A:Salonpreneur magazine is launching this July a brand new edition designed for the modern salon professional.
Speaker A:Whether you're a salon owner, solo pro, mobile therapist, academy leader or brand supplier, salonpreneur is created with you in mind.
Speaker A:Inside you'll find expert guidance on business skills development, mindset, well being and the tools you need to grow sustainably.
Speaker A:Salonpreneur helps you take control of your success with real world strategies, inspiring features and practical support for your journey.
Speaker A:Created by an industry leader with decades of experience, salonpreneur is packed with insight, community, connection and proven business.
Speaker A:Know how.
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Speaker A:Visit salonpreneurmagazine.co.uk or email helloalonpreneurmagazine.co.uk don't miss the launch of SalonPreneur, your new go to magazine for business mindset and well being in the salon.
Speaker A:Hello there and welcome to episode 99 of Inspiring Salon Professionals.
Speaker A:Today I am going to be joined by someone with some really serious HR expertise but also running alongside that a really good understanding and a background of doing that role within the beauty industry.
Speaker A:I am talking about Rebecca Day and I've been trying to connect with Rebecca for some time and we were going to be doing something else with this conversation but we've ended up just doing it as a me and her conversation.
Speaker A:So she has a background as a Global Executive Director of Retail Talent and the head of HR for Estelle Audrey companies across the UK and Ireland.
Speaker A:And Rebecca has also worked for some of the biggest names in the beauty world, Mac Jo Malone, Bobby Brown and many more.
Speaker A:Today she runs her own independent HR consultancy supporting salon spas and other brands.
Speaker A:We will be diving into one of the most important and often misunderstood topics facing salon owners disguised employment.
Speaker A:And if you listen to the episode I did with Rhea Lincoln a while back about the accountancy side and HMRC side of this, today we're going to come at it from an employment law side and we will also be exploring some of the up and coming legislation that could shape your HR practices to attract, retain and develop top tier talent in your business.
Speaker A:And this is going to be really important if you are a salon owner that has a team.
Speaker A:So whether you employ a full time team or working alongside self employed professionals, this conversation is going to be packed with insights that could protect you and your business and enhance your client experience.
Speaker A:So I will see you on the other side of this conversation and yeah, let's go and see what Rebecca has to say that's going to help us iron out some of that gray area that we know all too well is disguised employment.
Speaker A:See you in a minute.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So welcome Rebecca.
Speaker A:Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker A:It's taken a while to make this happen, isn't it?
Speaker B:Hasn't it?
Speaker B:Thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker B:It's lovely to see you again.
Speaker A:I know it's just been so long and I was, I was saying in the intro we were trying to organize something else and unfortunately it hasn't panned out and we're, I've kind of run out of time.
Speaker A:We've trying to get it organized and finish the season.
Speaker A:So we've just got you and me and, and hr and I haven't done a HR one before.
Speaker A:So this is a first for the podcast.
Speaker A:So if you can just.
Speaker A:Because obviously nobody in the industry is going to know who you are.
Speaker A:I've kind of known of you for quite a long time.
Speaker A:But if you, if you don't operate in those circles, then people won't know who you are.
Speaker A:So just give us a brief rundown on who Rebecca is and what you do.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker B:Well, my name is Rebecca Day and I am an independent HR consultant and I specialize in the professional and retail beauty industry.
Speaker B:So I had spent many, many years in corporate HR as a head of HR for the UK and Ireland region of the Estee Lauder Group.
Speaker B:Then a period as global Executive Director for the Lauder Group.
Speaker B:And about six years ago I decided, do you know what?
Speaker B:I want to set up on my own as an independent consultant.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:For six years.
Speaker B:And I work with a variety of different clients, primarily in professional retail beauty, but also in FMCG as well.
Speaker A:And what is fmcg?
Speaker B:Fast moving consumer goods.
Speaker B:So sometimes cosmetics are sort of come under fmcg, but it could be from food and beverage.
Speaker B:I'm working with a client at the moment in that field.
Speaker B:But you know, people are people.
Speaker B:So there's lots of common issues across all industries.
Speaker A:Indeed.
Speaker A:I think I used to work in.
Speaker A:Well, I, I Worked in HR when it was personnel.
Speaker B:Oh, right.
Speaker B:Well, so did I do.
Speaker B:I am.
Speaker B:I'm not going to tell you how long I've been in the field, but I should work out how old I am.
Speaker A:And it's so funny.
Speaker A:I, I actually, I bumped into someone I know from Facebook at an event on the weekend and we got chatting and, and I don't know, it was, you know, those conversations where you just end up going down some weird rabbit hole.
Speaker A:And I was saying to her something and actually if you worked in personnel, you may know this company as well.
Speaker A:And I organized a, an event when I worked in the health service with an organization called Springboard.
Speaker A:And have you heard?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so, and this person I was talking to on Saturdays.
Speaker A:Oh my God.
Speaker A:I did the Springboard program as well.
Speaker A:I was like, wasn't it the most amazing thing because it was like so ahead of its time, like women's self development.
Speaker A:I mean it was just groundbreaking.
Speaker A:And I did it in 91, I think.
Speaker A:And it was when personnel was still personnel.
Speaker A:It changed around that time.
Speaker A:It started changing into HR and.
Speaker A:And we went from having a personnel director and I think the new one called herself, her name was Helen and she called herself personnel and HR director.
Speaker A:And it gradually just merged into like HR director.
Speaker A:Used to write on a yellow legal pad.
Speaker A:She had say her PA had to have always like stack of like yellow like legal pads.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But we were talking about Springboard and how amazing was.
Speaker A:But that came.
Speaker A:It was such a.
Speaker A:It was just so amazing.
Speaker A:And I got to organize the whole of the course, like the management of it for Guys Hospital when I was a guy's hospital.
Speaker A:And yes, I didn't even know how many women we had like 120 women or something that went through the program and all the operations and logistics for it.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was amazing.
Speaker A:But anyway, so it's digressing slightly.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But personal was just.
Speaker A:I used to love it and I always, I always wanted to be a personal officer, but I got.
Speaker A:I was just like the personnel director's PA for a while and, and did all the admin stuff.
Speaker A:Sitting, typing on typewriters contracts where I started.
Speaker A:That long.
Speaker B:Yep, I remember that.
Speaker B:I still type like that like because you really have to pound the keys.
Speaker A:Oh dear.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, don't like how many whole time equivalents?
Speaker A:Oh, it takes me back.
Speaker A:I used to, I did used to enjoy like personal and I saw this other lady and we've both ended up in the beauty industry, but both have this really shared background of like Starting a lot of our career in personnel.
Speaker A:But yeah, so it's always, it's something I've always kind of had a bit of a passion for and even when I worked in.
Speaker A:I worked for Vodafone at one point in when the kids were little in the call center.
Speaker A:But I ended up.
Speaker A:And weirdly I ended up going from being like management side when I was in guys I was like, you know, obviously work for the personnel director.
Speaker A:So I was like management side.
Speaker A:So we were there against the unions and everything all the time and trying to overpower the unions and when I worked for Vodafone I ended up on staff side and we managed to win a massive battle against them.
Speaker A:When they made us all redundant it was.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that, all that osmosis of like.
Speaker B:Personnel stuff bringing back memories.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was good and like yeah, we won, we won a load of extra holiday on customer practice, let's just say.
Speaker A:But, but they, yeah, they've made them.
Speaker A:They'd mess something up and paid us all this holiday for two years.
Speaker A:And I mean that's.
Speaker B:Many people get wrong.
Speaker B:They think what's in your contract?
Speaker B:That's it.
Speaker B:But actually not.
Speaker B:It's customer practice completely supersedes whatever's in a written contract.
Speaker A:I know it was mad and they really sorry, complete digression from what we're going to be talking about.
Speaker A:But it is an interesting point because we, we were all part, all of us that won this battle were part time.
Speaker A:We were all on 20 hour, 25 hour contracts and our call center manager, I think it was, it was his fault, he'd given us the equivalent that he hadn't pro writed our holiday down.
Speaker A:So he kept going oh no, you've got more holiday to use.
Speaker A:And we're like no we haven't because like a couple of us worked in personnel previously so we knew how to pro right holiday and we were like no because we, you know, we're only working 20 hours therefore we should only get 16 days leave because we was like 25 day leave here or something and he's like no, no, no, no, you get all these days he.
Speaker A:So we got to take like the whole like full time equivalent annual leave.
Speaker A:The full timers were livid and it happened for two years and then they made us redundant and tried to pay us like the part time holiday and we're like no because we've actually had all of this holiday.
Speaker A:We can evidence we have already.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it was, it's amazing what customer practice does and I've used, I've used that piece of law so many times over the years.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:As you say, many people do not know that.
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:And I think it's probably not a good thing if you're an employer and you've got someone throwing custom practice at you.
Speaker A:But, but it's something as an employee you need to be aware of because if you allow your team to do something or behave in a certain way.
Speaker B:Then.
Speaker A:They can come back and bite you on the bum massively.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So let's just start by.
Speaker A:We're going to get the elephant in the room out of the way because the reason that you have come onto the podcast or one of the reasons you come on is because we want to talk about disguised employment.
Speaker A:And it is a massive, massive area of concern that's increasing because as other areas we'll get to later in the podcast.
Speaker A:But as there's changes in employer requirements and the way that the things are happening at the moment with legislation, more and more employers are looking to save money and looking to change the way that they work their model to make sure that they are keeping money in their pockets but also allowing their teams to still work with them.
Speaker A:And this is leading to this, like this very gray area being used all the time where there's been enforced self employment and it isn't always enforced.
Speaker A:Sometimes it just.
Speaker A:People just like to change model.
Speaker A:But can you just run us through a brief overview of what happens when.
Speaker A:If we start with what the regulations are and how you should have an employee and what that constitutes and then we can start looking at some of the more scary stuff of what happens when you get it wrong.
Speaker B:I mean, it doesn't matter, as we said before, because I think it's quite pertinent what you said about custom and practice.
Speaker B:So you might have a contract which says somebody is self employed.
Speaker B:You might have set that up really well.
Speaker B:It's really well defined, but it's actually what you do in practice.
Speaker B:I always say if it feels like employment, it usually is employment.
Speaker B:So if you're going in to meet with a salon owner and they're saying to you, look, I, you know, you are required to work these hours, These are the days that you need to work.
Speaker B:I'm giving you administrative duties or you're a salon manager, you need to use my pricing, you need to wear a uniform, you need to follow my instructions, his, you know, policies, his procedures.
Speaker B:This is the customer experience or client experience.
Speaker B:I'm suggesting it's employment in disguise.
Speaker B:So in a nutshell, if you're a true freelancer or you're a true self employed person, then you should be able to set your own hours of work days.
Speaker B:No, that's within reason because quite clearly nobody wants somebody in their salon that's going to work for two hours on a Wednesday night.
Speaker B:So you've got to be available when you know the salon is open and when clients want to, to be serviced.
Speaker B:But you should be able to choose when you know you want to work, when you want to take time off and you actually work under your own initiative, you work under your own steam.
Speaker B:So what you should be doing is conducting the full client service.
Speaker B:So a.
Speaker B:Finding the clients.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Booking them in, doing the back basin or you know, any prep work.
Speaker B:If it's a, if it's a beauty salon, conducting the service, even doing teas and coffees and then the money yourself.
Speaker B:And this is really using your own payment terminal.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know there are sort of, it's not always black and white usually there are sort of a number of checks that you tick.
Speaker B:Incidentally, the HMRC has just launched a really good tool which I would urge anyone to use if you're in doubt.
Speaker B:You know, am I employed?
Speaker B:I myself employed.
Speaker B:Because it really does take you through some of.
Speaker A:No, isn't it called the cest?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Which is quite generic but this one is specifically for the beauty industry.
Speaker B:That is because they are clamping down and they want people to, to get, get the message.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know there are all sorts of things, you know, sometimes it's, there is some wiggle room sometimes.
Speaker B:So for example, you might agree to do a walk in client, that's usually fine.
Speaker B:You might sort of decide as a self employed person that actually you're going to go in line with the product range at the salon stocks, you're going to go in line with their pricing structure.
Speaker B:But the key is that is your call.
Speaker B:So you know, as soon as you started invited to sort of, you know, set probationary, have a probationary review or your set performance goals, that is a massive race.
Speaker B:I'm actually working with a client at the moment who have had an employee in disguise for over five years and of course when there's a dispute, that's when somebody claims, well actually I'm an employee, you owe me holidays and you owe me pensions.
Speaker A:This is, and it's, and it's difficult, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because you know, the rights of an employee are costly for an employer.
Speaker A:And I, and I think the thing is, I think it's very, very different Isn't it?
Speaker A:I've got a friend at the moment who is setting up, she's opening a new business in an.
Speaker A:It's a completely new salon business.
Speaker A:But she is going into it as that she's going to be the umbrella and paper and everybody's going to be in there under their own steam and she is, and she is opening under that model and I think that she's going into it very open minded about what's going to happen.
Speaker A:She knows exactly what her gray areas are and how to avoid them and she is doing it in the right way.
Speaker A:She's a very law abiding person and there is, there is going to be no gray in her, in her business.
Speaker A:But you get people that are kind of already salon owners that then go, actually I'm kind of pretty fed up with paying all this Nic.
Speaker A:That's gone up so massively.
Speaker A:I'm actually not really enjoying having to like do all of my stuff as an employer.
Speaker A:Lot of it's a lot of admin and it's a lot of my time and there's all these costs and, and so actually what I'm going to do now is I think I'm just going to clear my staff out and make them redundant and then I'm going to invite them back as a self employed person.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so how does that.
Speaker A:Because that is, I know I am seeing not necessarily people are because I think people realize that that isn't necessarily the right thing to do.
Speaker A:But I'm seeing the results of it where people are then going on forums saying well actually this is what happened to me.
Speaker A:And, and then I mean the Rights to Employment Tribunal and it's, I mean, and it is.
Speaker A:And as we're going to come to later, the changes in legislation and stuff that are making people so much, making employers potentially more vulnerable.
Speaker B:Yeah, and I get it.
Speaker B:So you know, you know, I talk to salon owners all the time and you know one of, one of my clients, he's put £70,000 on his pay bill.
Speaker B:You know, I see uptick.
Speaker B:I get it, I get it's tempt, it's tempting.
Speaker B:There's two pieces of legislation you need to not fall foul of.
Speaker B:There's tax legislation and there's employment legislation and they don't always align.
Speaker B:So you've always got to be cognizant of what the employment regulations say and also what the taxman says.
Speaker B:So if you suddenly, you know, you make somebody redundant and then they suddenly appear the next day as a self employed person, a You're running a risk that somebody's going to say this was unfair redundancy, it was unfair dismissal.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:But also, you know, there's a, there's a trail, there's a, there's a, you know, from the hmrc, there's, there's a trial.
Speaker B:So you're going to have a double set of liabilities.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think it's an.
Speaker A:I mean, to me, and maybe because I've got a background in personnel and I have.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm by.
Speaker A:No, I, by notice, but I mean my, my personal knowledge is years and years out of date, but, but I have a basic understanding of like the rights and wrongs and, and basic Employment law doesn't change hugely, does it?
Speaker A:There's still, there's a right way of doing things and a wrong way of doing things and then there's nuances that each government kind of change things.
Speaker A:Sorry, my dogs just keep wandering around today.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's nuances affect things at different points and then get undone and then redone and whatever.
Speaker A:But I do think that if you are putting yourself like now employees or ex employees or whatever can take you to Employment Tribunal far more easily, far sooner.
Speaker A:And I think that if you're opening yourself up to tribunal, I just.
Speaker A:It's got to be one of the most stressful things to go through completely.
Speaker B:And the costs are absolutely off the scale because you're going to have to defend a case.
Speaker B:It can cost you between 25 and 30,000 pound.
Speaker B:That's even before you get to, you know, have it being.
Speaker B:Having to, to pay costs to the person that, you know, is taking you to tribunal.
Speaker A:And there's been quite scary.
Speaker A:I mean, I know there's been some quite eye watering figures that I've seen floating, floating through our, our world and you know, from the newspapers and from the media of like tens of thousands.
Speaker A:And I do, I think I saw one that was even over a hundred thousand that someone's had to pay.
Speaker A:And no insurance is going to cover for you for that because if you're found to be, if you're found to be lacking in your undertaking of the regulations and the laws, your insurance isn't going to cover you, is it?
Speaker B:Now, I'm always a little bit wary of Employment Tribunal insurance anyway because I think it's very, very hard to, to, to, to cover and usually if you go to sort of one of the big HR consultancies, they are if you deviate from what they've told you to do.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, it's it's goodbye.
Speaker B:They're very, very risk averse, sometimes the benefit and sometimes it's not because quite clearly there are sometimes times where you've done the right thing and someone's going to take you to tribunal anyway because you know, they're so minded, they've, they've got a grudge or a grievance.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's not a, it's not a nice thing to, to do and reputational damage as well because it's all there laid out for everybody.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker A:This is it, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's a public document once it goes.
Speaker B:To tribunal proceeding and you might end up paying back holiday back pay, pension contributions for, you know, a number of years and that's a lot of money.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And also the NICs that you, especially if you're, if you, if you're getting taken to tribunal for disguised employment, there's going to be all of the employer NICs, employee NICs.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:So, yeah, and I think I'm probably, I think because my husband's construction industry and I've helped him run his business nearly 30 years, so I've seen, I'm not quite as, don't know how FA you are with the construction industry scheme, but it's, but, but the building trade and the construction industry has been in this position for, I think one of our friends was, was, was investigated by the HMRC on that side of things and they were, they were taken for, I don't know, thousands and thousands of pounds.
Speaker A:They had quite a lot of subbies working for them and effectively, you know, we're in the construction industry, they're subbies and subcontractors is still the same terminology but we just use a different word for it.
Speaker A:You know, it's still, it is still the same legal status but we just use the term freelancer or self employed in the hair and beauty industry.
Speaker A:But we, you know, my husband's been a subbie for years but he's got, you know, he, he meets the requirements of being self employed.
Speaker A:He has his own van, he has to pay his own insurance, he has to pay his own way to work, he has to find the work and he has to go looking for it.
Speaker A:I mean he has got a lot of people he worked with that they would just come to him saying we've got this contract, you want to do it.
Speaker A:But there had to be a contract in place to say we're recruit, recruiting you to carry out this piece of work and then you're off on your own again.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:My husband's always kind of maintained a proper subcontractor status, but many of his friends worked full time for this company and consequently when the revenue was seeing that, people that, you know, they, they're part of, they're saying they're self employed but they've only ever got an invoice to one person and that's been the same for two, three years.
Speaker A:Then there's a query because all of that, all of their, all of their.
Speaker A:And in the construction industry you have, it used to be vouchers but now it's like an online system where as a contractor they have to say, okay, well we've got, we verified this person as a subcontractor and now we're going to take 20% at source and we pay that to HMRC and then we'll give you like a monthly ticket effectively to say that we paid your tax on your behalf and we do not want to go down this road in the hair beauty industry because I, believe me, it is a nightmare every month and I, I have to do reports every month for my husband's business to say if we've had any subcontractors working for us, if we've been contracts, if we've been the contractor and if we are the subcontractor, I have to wait every year to get all of my tax receipts in from the contractors to say that they've paid our tax and we do not want to end up in that place.
Speaker A:But our friend ended up, I think the figure that's jumped into my head was 26 grand of back tax and back national insurance that he had to pay for these couple of guys that it was shortly after this is, this scheme came in that they just went, no, we can see that every single voucher that they've had and every single monthly receipt comes from you.
Speaker A:So therefore they're employed.
Speaker A:Are you providing them with a van?
Speaker A:Oh, well, yeah, actually I am.
Speaker A:And the second you start getting into any kind of employee benefit, anything where you are providing something for them, it is.
Speaker A:And I think I've witnessed the change through the construction industry over the last 30 years and what HMRC have done and I, I can see that we're going to head the same way.
Speaker A:If we carry on with the numbers of people becoming self employed and subcontractors, then we're going to end up going down the same pathway because the revenue do not want to miss out on all of that.
Speaker B:You know, why would they?
Speaker B:On that, you know, opportunity, you've got.
Speaker A:Your doggy now as well.
Speaker A:It's like dog city tonight.
Speaker B:He actually needs a haircut.
Speaker B:But there you go.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And you know, and you picked up on a really good point about equipment.
Speaker B:And again for hairdressers or you know, beauty salads, you should be using your own products and your own kit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's a right of substitution as well that you really have the right to be able to send something in your place you don't fancy going in.
Speaker B:As long as they're qualified, you can send them in.
Speaker B:And that's, you know, a lot of companies do not realize that's the case.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker A:I know because I know, like we were saying before we started recording, like my cousin used to work for me, she was self employed but she would, she ended up, she had said she hurt her leg so she just arranged one of her friends to come in and work because we, because I understood that I did not want to be in a place of grayness.
Speaker A:It's like, and I think we seem to have a situation in the industry where people that now consider themselves to be ex employers maybe haven't quite understood the regulations and the legislation and it's not for want of it being there.
Speaker A:I mean it's like really quite clear.
Speaker B:I mean this has been a topic we've been talking about for years and years and years really.
Speaker B:I think people think they're going to.
Speaker A:Get away with it and you know.
Speaker B:What, it might work.
Speaker B:Whilst everything's really nice in the salon, you know, you're getting on with the people that are there.
Speaker B:As soon as there's a dispute, that's the first thing somebody's going to do is say, well, I'm not really, you know, a contractor.
Speaker B:This is not really a rent a chair agreement.
Speaker B:I am actually an employee and I've seen it happen time and time and time again.
Speaker B:The first step is to have a really robust service agreement which makes it really, really clear that yourself employed and to carve out exactly, you know, if you're renting a chair, you're renting a room, what's included in that?
Speaker B:And obviously how you, you know, if you are you.
Speaker B:Is it going to be a percentage of takings, is it going to be a daily rate, how that's going to be covered off and clients.
Speaker B:I have seen so very many disputes over who owns clients as well.
Speaker B:So you'd really want that to be carved out in a robust service agreement.
Speaker B:And second, follow it.
Speaker B:Don't, you know, spend time creating this service agreement and then deviate from it, because then that gets you into trouble.
Speaker A:And I think that's the thing, isn't it?
Speaker A:I think, especially if you're on a friend, if you're on friendly terms.
Speaker A:And I think particularly as a female led industry, we all want to be friends, we all want to be nice.
Speaker A:And I think that that's probably our biggest downfall is that we forget that we're actually businesses and that the person that's going to be renting that chair is another business.
Speaker A:That they're actually.
Speaker A:Yes, they are a person, but for the purposes of what they're doing in your premises, they're a business first.
Speaker A:And any relationship beyond that is the bonus, not the other way around.
Speaker B:It's kind of, it is an intimate industry.
Speaker B:You know, it tends to be five, maybe more, it might even be two or three people.
Speaker B:You're there, you, you know, you're, you're talking, you share details of each other's lives, you get clients that come in.
Speaker B:It's very, very personable.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But that can still soon go very wrong.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:I mean, I was always very lucky in my, in my premises.
Speaker A:We had so many people come and go over the years, but it was always mostly amicable.
Speaker A:I had a few situations that I had to cease at different points and make dismissals and stuff.
Speaker A:But it's, but it's one of those things, isn't it?
Speaker A:You just, it's, it's a really unfortunate part of having people in your, in your business is that sometimes it doesn't work out and sometimes you have to move on.
Speaker B:You can do.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:There are things that you can do to try and safeguard against that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Variably, as a business owner, it will happen.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think, and I think sometimes you just, I don't, I always used to just know that it was, it was time that something needed to change.
Speaker A:Tried everything, tried everything and at some point you just have to, you have to make the decision, don't you?
Speaker A:But it's, it's hard.
Speaker A:So what really and truly the easiest way for people to do it so they can go onto the HMRC website, they can go to the head, the now the hair and beauty cest.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And that's available to employers and to anyone that's starting up in business or anyone that's going to be leaving employment and going into self employment in, within somebody else's space that is there for anybody.
Speaker A:And one thing, because I know for tax purposes, HMRC are saying that whatever that the cessed says they will stand by so if that's the case for employment law, would that still stand?
Speaker B:It depends.
Speaker B:Because I said tax law and employment law are very, very different.
Speaker B:So you would still want to see.
Speaker B:I mean it will go in your favour because you could say, look, according to sest, I'm a self employed person, but they would still apply the employment test which, you know, is this regular work?
Speaker B:You know, are you working for the same person day in, day out?
Speaker B:How many years have you been, been there?
Speaker B:You know, are you getting paid holidays?
Speaker B:Do you have to follow direction?
Speaker B:Are you expected to service other, you know, other clients?
Speaker B:You know, are your clients paying via the salons overall system?
Speaker B:So they will do that as well?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Very importantly, if you're filling in assessed, make sure you're accurate and make sure you're not, you know, you're not sort of manipulating it because they will, if they think that it there, there is a, you know, a whisper of a chance that you haven't completed it properly, they will, will investigate you.
Speaker A:And so.
Speaker A:Oh, go on.
Speaker A:Sorry, Rebecca.
Speaker B:I was going to say it's also a really, really useful tool, the CESS tool.
Speaker B:If, to find out, you know, if I'm, what do I need to think about if I'm going self employed?
Speaker B:Because you need to register, you need to register for self assessment.
Speaker B:You absolutely should find yourself a good accountant.
Speaker B:People think they can do that, a good accountant.
Speaker B:You really need somebody's help with setting that up, you know, managing your running costs.
Speaker B:But the first, first step is to sort of look at, you know, what your tax obligations are.
Speaker A:And I think as well, one of the thing I was going to say was, and I, and I see this question quite a lot is that people are, and it comes from both sides from like the salon owner and from the self employed person.
Speaker A:And quite often a self employed person believes that they shouldn't have to pay if they go on holiday and things like that.
Speaker A:But, but the fact if you are self employed and you want to be self employed, like the salon owner who's got their lease, doesn't get any time off their lease if they want to go on holiday.
Speaker A:And I think, and I think this is the, the thing, isn't it, is that where you kind of, where people don't quite get it is that if you are self employed, you are a business owner and therefore Your costs are 52 weeks a year, seven days a week and that's how you work out your cost of service and your cost of everything that you do is.
Speaker B:I've often seen disputes on that, which is so important why it's so important to get that in a contract and agree because you're right, you know, if you're doing a rent a room, rent a chair arrangement arrangement then you know you're.
Speaker B:The owner's losing out on that.
Speaker B:So yeah, going into, going into being self employed with your eyes open as well.
Speaker B:On what terms?
Speaker B:Of what that means.
Speaker A:Yeah, because I do think, and I think sometimes like the, what I'm seeing, I mean it isn't all the time but I've seen several incidents of it is that salon owners are so desperate to get someone to rent their space that they will give three weeks away.
Speaker A:And it's like.
Speaker A:But that's costing you money and it's not, that's not a good business sense.
Speaker A:It's just like, it doesn't make, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a bit weird, isn't it?
Speaker A:But I suppose.
Speaker A:But then as well, if you, if you're working on a commission basis rather than a space rental basis, then if they're not earning, you're not, you're not earning either.
Speaker A:And so again you're in that kind of gray area of like.
Speaker A:Well, who's actually in charge here?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:No, absolutely a hundred percent.
Speaker B:I mean rent a chair, rent a room, self employed can work really, really well.
Speaker B:You know, if you're a, you know, a bit a, you know, a therapist or a stylist or what have you and you want to co.
Speaker B:Share a working space with other like minded people, it works fantastically.
Speaker B:If that's your business model, you're doing your clients, they're doing their clients and you're just sharing the cost of, you know, the facilities.
Speaker B:That works really, really well.
Speaker B:But it's very specific business model and.
Speaker A:That'S, and that's, that's what my friend is setting up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and it is, and it's going to have, it's going to have its challenges but it's, and I think as well there's a, a lady by the name of Janie Tung who's got, she's got a magazine called Beauty Beauty Independent Beauty Professional.
Speaker A:But she also is the like the UK contact for something called Phoenix Suites.
Speaker A:And it is, and it's used in the American system of suites where you literally have a huge space and you all have like a section of that space.
Speaker A:And that I think is the way to go forward.
Speaker A:There is no sue salon with all of these things within it.
Speaker A:You just have to be what.
Speaker A:And I think this is the thing is that because I think if you open a business, I know when I have my business, I wanted it to be called my thing.
Speaker A:And so it's very, very difficult to kind of break away from anybody being part of your, you know, sue salon.
Speaker A:And I think that's where it gets difficult because then what do you have on the front of the building?
Speaker A:And I think this is where we are.
Speaker A:We don't help ourselves a little bit.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, if you're working in Sue Salon, but you're, you know, I don't know, Rebecca's hair, then what you do.
Speaker A:Because with the branding's all wrong, isn't it?
Speaker A:I mean, it's, it is, it is just.
Speaker A:It gets messy, doesn't it?
Speaker A:And I think this is a problem.
Speaker A:Everybody wants it all to look so pretty and lovely and that's when you can, I think just that just that bit of it itself makes it quite difficult.
Speaker B:No, I would totally.
Speaker B:I mean, you're actually meant to have a little card and say, you know, independent therapist and stylists working in, you know, Sue Salon.
Speaker B:Just to make it very, very clear.
Speaker B:I mean, I've not seen that in practice.
Speaker B:But you are, that's, you know, one of the things that you, you should be doing.
Speaker A:And I've seen, and I saw recently somebody wanted, they were hair stylist working, self employed in a salon spike, like chair renting and they wanted to, they wanted to get a Google actually, they wanted a Google business profile and they had to have a signage for where they worked and the salon wouldn't let them put it in.
Speaker A:And like immediately you're like, okay, well that's, that's, that's a red flag.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, you have to be able to have your own signage if you, you know, so something on the mirror, something on the beauty, on the door of the beauty room that you rent, you need to have your signage there.
Speaker A:But yeah, I mean it is, it's an endless subject, isn't it?
Speaker A:And it's like anything you think as a, as a business owner you need, if the salon owner or the space owner is not allowing you to do it, then you don't want to necessarily be in that space because you're, they're, they're stopping you from performing business.
Speaker A:It's like, it's a, it's a very weird thing, isn't it?
Speaker A:Very, very.
Speaker A:And there's so many areas to it.
Speaker A:But yeah, and then, yeah, we don't want to go and we, none of us want to go to the Employment Tribunal and that's where.
Speaker A:That's where this can end up.
Speaker A:So just trying to think, because I think we've.
Speaker A:With so many of my questions, we've just sort of covered anyway.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So we basically.
Speaker A:We just need to.
Speaker A:I think the.
Speaker A:The key is make sure you do your cest and make sure you are both or whoever the number of people are, are all operating fully independently.
Speaker A:I know I was.
Speaker A:My accountant used to let me have one payment coming in and then I would.
Speaker A:I would have to move the money immediately so that it wasn't held in my bank account, so that it wasn't my money and that money was available on demand was how it was when I was doing years ago.
Speaker A:And I don't know that it's changed that much, but that was like.
Speaker A:But I know looking back now, I sort of sit thinking, oh, I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I think it depends on the.
Speaker B:The arrangement, isn't it?
Speaker B:So if it's, you know, a percentage of.
Speaker B:Of revenue or percentage of retail, then, you know, it does come into your account and then you do have to disperse it.
Speaker A:Yeah, so it was a nice.
Speaker A:So we.
Speaker A:Yeah, so we got around it or got round it.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker A:That was the.
Speaker A:The way I was asked.
Speaker A:I was advised to do it at the time, but, yeah, it's a very difficult thing.
Speaker A:Very, very difficult.
Speaker A:And I think we just all need to try and stay on the right side of the regulations.
Speaker A:So looking at employee experience, let's get away from disguised employment.
Speaker B:Positive.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yes, because I think it's.
Speaker A:I just think we just need to just be mindful of the fact that we aren't causing problems for the other party or for ourselves.
Speaker A:And I think that's the key to it, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's just do the right thing.
Speaker A:So looking at employee experience, we know that there's a lot of issues around salon owners and employees and trying to keep them and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:But if you do have a team of employees, they are fundamental to how your business operates.
Speaker A:So how can salon owners define the right skills and behaviors that they need to have from their team so.
Speaker A:So that they can deliver that amazing customer journey?
Speaker A:So it is all about.
Speaker A:Yeah, I suppose really it's part of the recruitment process, isn't it, to make sure that you are getting the right people through your door?
Speaker B:100%.
Speaker B:My biggest piece of advice to any company that I ever work with, big, small, beauty, hair, fmcg, whoever is identify the skills and behaviors that your team need to demonstrate to be successful.
Speaker B:And if we bring that to sort of our industry, what does that mean?
Speaker B:It means you take your, what client experience do you want to be known for in your salon and then you break it down.
Speaker B:So for example, it may be that I, you know, I want the client to be greeted.
Speaker B:I want, you know, the consultation to be very much about asking them probing questions about their lifestyle, their look, you know, what maintenance they, they need.
Speaker B:So that's active listening and questioning.
Speaker B:It's so then, you know, validation.
Speaker B:So what I'm hearing is you want X, Y, Z.
Speaker B:There are very, very specific skills and behaviors that you will want anyone coming into your salon to demonstrate.
Speaker B:Yeah, you want to identify those and then use them for what I call your end to end talent plan.
Speaker B:So you use those skills and behaviors for how you attract, retain, develop and reward your employees.
Speaker B:So what does that mean?
Speaker B:It means when you're interviewing, you're asking questions about, well, tell me how you identify, you know, what your clients needs and expectations are or it's tell me about how you've gone the extra mile to make a client's day.
Speaker A:Yeah, scenarios, scenarios.
Speaker B:So it's actually asking for positive proof that somebody has the ability to do that.
Speaker B:So it's very much what's called behavior based.
Speaker B:You're asking somebody to pull on their previous experience to show that they have got what it takes.
Speaker B:You would also then really set those as, as objectives.
Speaker B:So you know, obviously there's always going to be, we're talking about employed people here by the way.
Speaker B:But there's always going to be, you know, revenue, service revenue, KPIs, retail revenue, KPIs and you're probably going to have some KPIs like you know, client returns, repeat bookings, what have you, really developing your column.
Speaker B:But you'll also want to have some behavioral ones in there.
Speaker B:You know, you know, standard of client experiences, feedback.
Speaker B:So use those when you set performance objectives.
Speaker B:And really, really important piece of advice is get used to doing probationary period reviews after three months because there is a piece of legislation coming down the line.
Speaker B:It's going through parliament at the moment.
Speaker B:It will hit probably autumn in 26, which is going to give employees the day one right to, to make an take to claim unfair dismissal.
Speaker A:I know and I think as an employer that's pretty scary.
Speaker B:Pretty scary.
Speaker B:How can you get around that?
Speaker B:Well, how can you minimize the impact to your business?
Speaker B:Two things get your recruitment right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Make a point of identifying what are the cultural values that I want, what's the culture in my salon.
Speaker B:What values as a salon owner do I hold dear?
Speaker B:What does that client experience look like?
Speaker B:And spend time thinking not just about technical skills, but behavioral skills as well.
Speaker B:As I said, use those to recruit.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And also set some very, very clear probationary period assessments.
Speaker B:Do those.
Speaker B:And if you, you know, I don't say don't give people a chance, you know, but if you really feel that there are some behavioral issues, then you want to be following up that, following a process so that if somebody isn't right for you or that then you actually would part company with them in the right way.
Speaker B:You know, we're talking about being cavalier before the end of their probationary period.
Speaker B:Now, what they think is going to happen or what we think is going to happen is that there will be an extended probationary period up to six months.
Speaker B:It could be up to nine months where, you know, you could move someone on if they weren't performing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That hasn't been confirmed yet.
Speaker B:So look out for that.
Speaker B:Everybody, as you know, in terms of when that's going to be announced.
Speaker B:But get those two processes right, knit proper, do not let them fester.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And I think one of the difficulties is in the recruitment process.
Speaker A:When I, when I was recruiting, quite often, I think it's, it's quite easy to sort the wheat from the chaff through good questions, but also doing thorough trade tests.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I, and I do firmly believe that does involve putting people under pressure.
Speaker A:I've always been quite, quite harsh in my trade tests.
Speaker A:And they would have to perform treatments on me as a salon owner because if they could, if they could perform those treatments on me well and efficiently and without fear, then they could, then they're going to be able to perform on anybody that walks through that door.
Speaker A:The only time I'd never get them to do it on me was I, I would, because I always, when I bust on and I'd always have my nails on anyway, so they, they wouldn't be having opportunity to do anything to my nails.
Speaker A:Plus I wouldn't let anyone else do my nails.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:But I would always get a client in who I know like and trust and who knows, like, who know, knew, liked and trust my business.
Speaker A:And I would make them have a French manicure and a red polish.
Speaker A:And I do, because I do like competition management.
Speaker A:So they'd have to do effectively competition manicure on a client.
Speaker A:And, and again, if they pass the test, then they move on into the next stage.
Speaker A:But you've got, but those things, if people can perform if they want the job enough and they want to be part of your community and they want to be part of your business.
Speaker A:If they want it enough, they will perform.
Speaker A:And if they don't, then they're not fit for your business.
Speaker A:So they're quite harsh, but.
Speaker B:Well, absolutely, because let's face it, you know, the reality is it's tough.
Speaker A:It's tough.
Speaker B:You'll be rushed off your feet.
Speaker B:You will have a different variety of clients, some more discerning, more, some more picky than others.
Speaker B:Sometimes.
Speaker B:We know that clients can put you under pressure, so absolutely, you need to be able to prove that you can perform under pressure.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think, you know, and I used to ask them to, like, answer the phone.
Speaker A:I used to, I used to push them.
Speaker A:And because I.
Speaker A:And it didn't, I have to say, even going through those lengths, I'd get someone that did have technical ability.
Speaker A:But then, and because people don't, they're not always, let's say they can embellish a little bit, can't they?
Speaker A:Interview.
Speaker A:We all can.
Speaker A:Because you want to, you want to put across the best side of you and everything.
Speaker A:And I think that's when it's difficult is if you, if you get what the person's, if they're giving you a false history or a false statement of what they, how they believe they perform.
Speaker A:Because I think this is where it always lets down, isn't it?
Speaker A:People's perception of how they perform and the actual reality can be quite different.
Speaker A:And, And I think I, over the years, I think I had to let four, four, five people go.
Speaker A:I think of probably that many more because I was quite, I was a hard taskmaster, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker A:And, But I had high standards and my clients.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker B:You have to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it is hard.
Speaker A:But I was very.
Speaker A:I mean, I've been quite fortunate.
Speaker A:My sister as been in like senior management for a long time.
Speaker A:The first time I had to do it, I was, I was so scared of having to get rid of somebody.
Speaker A:But she, she gave me all the right or she gave me all the wording and she went, right, and this is what you're going to do.
Speaker A:This is how you're going to do it.
Speaker A:And you are just going to do it and then you're going to phone me.
Speaker A:And I was in pieces.
Speaker A:It's horrible having to dismiss somebody.
Speaker A:But I went through the process.
Speaker A:I'd spoken to my employer, I'd spoken to my.
Speaker A:I always have legal insurance, so I'd Gone through all of my stuff with my, like, with the employer legal team on my insurance.
Speaker A:I'd spoken to acas, and I went through everything I needed to.
Speaker A:To make sure I dotted every.
Speaker A:I crossed every T.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I think that you.
Speaker A:You have to take advice, don't you?
Speaker B:Oh, 100% always take advice because do it in the wrong way, you know, you know, sack somebody immediately.
Speaker B:Don't pay notice, pay, don't pay outstanding holiday entitlement.
Speaker B:Get it wrong.
Speaker B:It's costly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I also think it's a right way of letting someone go and a wrong way of letting them go.
Speaker B:I always think, sue, to your point, I think the day that I don't.
Speaker B:I'm not concerned about terminating somebody's employment and I, you know, in my line of work, that happens a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Then I need to find out something else to do.
Speaker B:Because you're dealing with human lives.
Speaker B:I always think if you.
Speaker B:As long as you let somebody go with a head held high, with dignity, you know, that's all we hope for.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think I was actually when we.
Speaker A:When I was sad about Vodafone earlier and we were subject to.
Speaker A:And I'm sure you may have done these over the years, we were subject to a site closure.
Speaker A:And that was.
Speaker A:That was fun because they.
Speaker A:We all went into thinking we were just having a staff meeting and the men in gray suits from head office came down and everyone literally had to down tools and.
Speaker A:And we had to evacuate the building.
Speaker A:And it.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker A:That was quite a scary thing to be on the end.
Speaker B:But it sounds.
Speaker B:It's possibly not the way that I.
Speaker A:Would handle it, but our manager, who actually got all of our leave wrong, love him.
Speaker A:He had decided, because he wanted to, he was running this call center really efficiently.
Speaker A:You know, it was like, you know, good evening, Page.
Speaker A:Like vertical phone page Talk.
Speaker A:My name's Sue.
Speaker A:How may I help you?
Speaker A:Oh, done.
Speaker A:Over and over again.
Speaker A:But we.
Speaker A:So we.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He wanted to keep the call center running, so he knew we had this.
Speaker A:They were coming down to talk to us.
Speaker A:So he staggered us all through, like, so he knew that they said, oh, the meeting would be like forever long.
Speaker A:So he did three sets of meetings.
Speaker A:So we all turned up at different points and like, then we were all getting phone calls going, no, get in now.
Speaker A:Because they literally are closing the site and you need to come and, like, empty your locker.
Speaker A:And it was.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was really quite.
Speaker A:So he kind of made it more challenging because he misread what was happening.
Speaker A:Poor Bloke.
Speaker A:I mean, he lost it, he lost everything as well.
Speaker A:It was very difficult.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But I do think that the whole getting, getting employee relations wrong in situations like that is, is so difficult.
Speaker A:And I think as an employer, you know, now with the legislation that's going to be changing, you know, it's, it's got to be that you have, you've got to get this all right, because if you don't, you're going to have problems.
Speaker A:And that's where people like you come in.
Speaker A:Rebecca, it's just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is there.
Speaker A:It's having someone on the end of the phone to, to help you go through this stuff because it is challenging.
Speaker B:Usually employment legislation and treating people in the right way go hand to hand.
Speaker B:Hand in hand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's not about trying to make anybody the bad guy, is it?
Speaker A:It's just about.
Speaker A:It is about doing the right thing and being nice humans to each other.
Speaker B:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker A:So what I.
Speaker A:So is there anything else that's coming down the line?
Speaker A:I mean, obviously we've got the change in first day rights.
Speaker B:First day rights?
Speaker B:Yeah, that is the biggie.
Speaker B:I mean, some other things that have come in just in case nobody's aware of it, is protection against sexual harassment.
Speaker B:Now, we think because we work in, you know, I would say, fair to say, pretty female dominated in industry, and that's not an issue.
Speaker B:You still by law need to do a risk assessment of, you know, the likelihood of one of your staff being sexually harassed.
Speaker B:And by the way, you have a liability to do that not just within the salon in terms of your employees, but for third parties, including clients as well.
Speaker A:So that's a big area, particularly in intimate waxing and in massage.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:We know.
Speaker A:I mean, I know I've been on the end of things.
Speaker A:I would rather have not have been.
Speaker A:And, and I think that is something that we know exists.
Speaker A:We know that we can answer the phone and I get, I mean, I get texts from guys because I still provide like massage services and, and I get texts from guys every now and again asking for inappropriate services.
Speaker A:And it's just.
Speaker A:And it is, it is harassment.
Speaker B:It is harassment.
Speaker B:So do a risk assessment.
Speaker B:It's things like loan working, you know, putting, put assessing the risk and putting in plans to mitigate that and just making sure people understand what's appropriate, what's not in inappropriate.
Speaker B:I'm sure everybody knows by now about tip allocation, that the, the legislation that came in about fair allocation of.
Speaker A:Yeah, you, you.
Speaker B:If somebody gives a tip to a member of staff, obviously it's subject to tax and NI deductions, but you can't deduct anything else and you have to fairly allocate that.
Speaker B:There's also day one rights of flexible working.
Speaker B:So anybody coming in has the right to request flexible working.
Speaker B:But you still need to follow the same process we've always followed.
Speaker B:You know, you, you can, you can turn down a flexible working request if there's a, you know, if there's one of few fair reasons, if it, for example, if it's going to put additional burden on the rest of the team.
Speaker B:So those are the biggies.
Speaker B:There's some other ones in terms of extension of parental and bereavement leave and career's leave, but we're not quite sure what that's going to look like at the moment.
Speaker B:But my biggest piece of advice is keep your eyes and ears open.
Speaker B:Think about your policies and procedures.
Speaker B:Now if you do one thing, spend time honing your recruitment process, the questions, what you're going to follow and getting probationary period review forms and the process in place ready for next year.
Speaker A:I mean, you just, you just said this is something that I was answering a comment on on Facebook earlier today and you say about flexible working.
Speaker A:And they were.
Speaker A:And this, I think it was an Australian group and they were saying is as an industry of women mainly, are we actually guilty of discriminating against working mums and making those people leave the, like basically leave the industry and this, they are an Australian group, I think.
Speaker A:So it might be slightly different over there.
Speaker A:But I responded to say, you know, like, we, we have, we should be, you know, welcoming women that want to work part time because huge numbers of women want to work part time.
Speaker A:We should be operating flexible working conditions and term time only and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:We are, we have got a recruitment crisis where people either don't, they don't want to work employed anymore because for some reason, some, some, there was like a magic pill in Covid that made everybody suddenly want to be entrepreneurial and have their own home cabin and, and I don't know quite what happened.
Speaker A:And I think some of them missed that mystique is disappearing as they realize that actually it's a bit of a struggle maintaining that for a long period of time and trying to keep clients coming and all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker A:But we need to kind of open the door to employment again.
Speaker A:And if we don't have flexibility in what we offer, people can just go and work in a home salon and do whatever they want whenever they want.
Speaker A:And if you Employer aren't offering that kind of flexibility.
Speaker B:With you on that, Sue.
Speaker B:I just think it's the right thing to do if you can.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, people back into work.
Speaker B:It brings people into the industry and just look at, you know, ways that you can make it work.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because there's going to be, you know, for every mum that wants to have, like the summer holidays off, you may have somebody else who works on a different timeline and maybe they are busy doing something all through the, you know, maybe they're in, like, studying a degree in something and actually they can't work the rest of the year, but they'd really love to work in the summer holidays.
Speaker A:You don't know, do you?
Speaker A:There's all.
Speaker A:For every Ying, there's always a yang.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker B:That's funny to say that.
Speaker B:I mean, back in corporate life, we did that, you know, we, that we.
Speaker B:We approached sort of like cabin crew, because if you cabin crew, you know, there's sometimes where there is a lot of downtime, so that we had them as our temporary retail associates.
Speaker B:We used to, you know, with lots of actors when they weren't, you know, acting, you know, they, they would come and work with us.
Speaker B:So there is so many different ways of being, I think, innovative.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I do think, you know, like, I mean, the, the.
Speaker A:Is particularly the beauty industry has become very, very easily accessible through quite often some pretty.
Speaker A:But, but equally, those courses can still lead to an amazing professional.
Speaker A:If they have the right attitude and the right desires and whatever, it can still lead to someone that's an amazing professional.
Speaker A:And so, you know, that it's, you know, like in the, in the acting, everyone's always a waitress and they've always got that kind of backup job.
Speaker A:And there's huge numbers of people that have got our skills as a backup job and maybe, you know, they might want to have some extra hours somewhere.
Speaker A:You don't know, do you?
Speaker A:And I think we've, we've really got to kind of reconstruct how we work as employers to attract employees of quality.
Speaker B:100%.
Speaker B:I completely agree with you.
Speaker B:I've been really, really lucky in my career.
Speaker B:I, you know, I had an employer that let me work flexibly when, you know, my children were small, and I'll be forever grateful to them.
Speaker B:And what they got was a really, really loyal, dedicated employee that would go the extra mile.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I think my sister works for quite a large corporation and, and she's utilized the flexible working opportunities, but she, I mean, like, now love her.
Speaker A:She has to work really, really hard Monday to Thursday but she takes every Friday, every Friday off and she, you know she gets like about a 20 minute lunch break and has to do an extra hour and a half each day or something.
Speaker A:So she's working super hard on the days when she is working.
Speaker A:But then she gets like, she's only doing a four day week and press work.
Speaker A:In actual fact, the hairdressers where I work, where I work, where I go to all of the staff in there, she's an employed model and the staff, I've been going to them for about two and a half years since I moved up here.
Speaker A:And the staff don't change, they're all employed.
Speaker A:They all do four day weeks and they all do like 10 hour days and they all love it and they've got all of those bonuses of him.
Speaker A:They've.
Speaker A:She has got the flexibility thing working brilliantly because she just.
Speaker A:Everybody that goes there just works four day week.
Speaker A:And I mean what bliss is that?
Speaker B:Yeah, completely.
Speaker A:Your work life balance is so completely.
Speaker B:Different and that's so, so very important to the point you made about COVID People demand that now.
Speaker B:They really, really demand that work life balance.
Speaker B:And you vibe, you've got to get on board with it.
Speaker B:You have to as an employee get on board with it because that's what people want.
Speaker A:Yeah, because this is what I was saying on this post this morning is like, you know, something changed during that time and I think probably is one of the industries that was left locked down the most.
Speaker A:We had so much more time at home with our families than most other industries and, and I think that it changed the way we look at things.
Speaker A:And I think there was also, there was potentially an element of like, you know, there were people, we know there were people that were providing services when things were locked down.
Speaker A:It shouldn't have been but I think that gave people that entrepreneurial oh my God, I can actually do this myself.
Speaker A:And it just changed so much.
Speaker A:And I don't know, I don't know what the industry is going to do going forwards and how if an employed model is ever going to be thing.
Speaker A: saying it was saying that by: Speaker B:I saw something very similar that the numbers in terms of self employed versus employed are exponential and it's.
Speaker A:And I don't know, I'm gonna have to say I Don't think I could ever go back to being employed, having been self employed for so long, but, but I do, I, it does worry me because, you know, just for apprenticeships, I mean, just the, the, the impacts of not having an employed model for you to hone your craft in.
Speaker A:And I was really lucky when I first came into industry, I was working self employed because that's how she had her business set up.
Speaker A:And so I just needed to get a commission and I was pretty much told what to do and when to do it and everything, but I didn't know any difference.
Speaker A:So even though I did all the construction industry stuff and I knew all of that, but it didn't seem to apply in this industry at that point.
Speaker A:But it, it just the opportunity to have that peer and I, I've talked about this a lot on this season is like, you know, that peer approval of your work, that peer feedback on your work, that, you know, the management system and the hierarchy and learning, you know, being able to teach the one below you and learn from the one above you and all of that is just, is disappearing from the industry and it's so sad.
Speaker A:We've got a whole workforce that have got nowhere to turn and on their own and no staff room.
Speaker B:So as you say, future generations, it's very worrying.
Speaker A:And then the robots will take over.
Speaker B:Really hope the robots will never.
Speaker A:I certainly.
Speaker B:I know nails done by a robot.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:It's weird, isn't it?
Speaker A:Very, very weird.
Speaker A:So if they, so if we will end on.
Speaker A:If you could give salon owners one piece of advice to make their HR lives most wonderful, what would be the big what and what would have the biggest positive impact on their business?
Speaker A:What would that one piece of advice be?
Speaker B:Again?
Speaker B:I always come back to what I said before.
Speaker B:Identify the skills and behaviors your team need to deliver an exceptional client experience.
Speaker B:Change them into skills and behaviours, overhaul your recruitment processes, making sure that you're protecting yourself, you're getting the right people in to minimise any negative employee relations issues right from day one and just be, you know, really rigorous in terms of nipping problems in the bud, moving anybody on during the probationary period, phoning ACAs, make sure you do it in the right way and just really make sure that you really understand that you're compliant with, you know, whatever business model you're following, whether it's employed, self employed.
Speaker A:Wonderful.
Speaker A:Okay, so how can people work with you if they, if they need a HR specialist in their world?
Speaker A:How can people work with you?
Speaker B:Drop me a line It's Rebecca Consultants dot com.
Speaker A:Lovely.
Speaker A:And, and I'll put the, I'll put links into the show notes and stuff anyway.
Speaker A:But it's been lovely having you and I can't believe it's been this, it's taken so long to get to the point where we actually got you on for a recording.
Speaker A:But that's because you're so busy because you're very good at what you do and it.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's going to be an interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What have we got?
Speaker A:About 18 months of waiting to see how this all pans out first.
Speaker B:Evolution or revolution or whatever you want to call it, an employment legislation for, you know, a significant long time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So thank you very much and, and I know we'll be having, we'll, we'll carry on a quick conversation but I look forward to working with you again because I know that's going to be happening.
Speaker A:So thank you so much for coming on Rebecca.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me, Sue.
Speaker B:It's been a pleasure.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:Well, that is HR pretty much covered I think.
Speaker A:And you will be able to catch up with Rebecca in the new Salonpreneur magazine.
Speaker A:She's going to be coming in to write for me and, and I'm really looking forward to that because I think it's such a valuable.
Speaker A:Part of what we need to do as business owners is to understand how we deal with the people that are in our employees and the people that work within our premises.
Speaker A:So there was just, there's a lot in that episode to unpack and if you are in a position of having self employed workers within your venue, then please, please make sure you are doing it the right way.
Speaker A:Whereas like 10 years ago, five years ago even you could kind of, you could probably get like the word get away with it.
Speaker A:It's just, it says it all.
Speaker A:But you could, you could probably have a, you could dance in the gray a little bit.
Speaker A:But they are changing and particularly HMRC are changing how they work with our industry and they are tightening things up because they know that there's been a change in our models.
Speaker A:So please, please, please protect yourself, protect anybody that is in your employer and do not just jump straight into a self employed model without taking legal professional accountancy HR advice is the, the way you need to look at this.
Speaker A:So that's it for me.
Speaker A:And next time it will be episode 100.
Speaker A:It will be the end of this season and I've got to decide what I'm going to do for it yet.
Speaker A:I haven't even got a plan.
Speaker A:I may just.
Speaker A:I don't know what I'm going to do.
Speaker A:I just go, that's it.
Speaker A:105 minutes and out.
Speaker A:Who knows?
Speaker A:Anyway, thank you very much for watching.
Speaker A:Thank you very much for listening and I will see you next time for the last one of the season.
Speaker A:Bye for now.
Speaker A:Is your salon delivering the exceptional client journey you've always envisioned?
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